xingyi variants, shanxi and hebei?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: xingyi variants, shanxi and hebei?

Postby C.J.Wang on Sun Jun 08, 2008 7:50 pm

Dai Zhi Qiang wrote:
C.J.Wang wrote:There's a Hebei Xinyi lineage in Taiwan passed down by Li Dong-Yuan, who was a direct student of Li Cun-Yi.

The system contains praying mantis and crane (like Dai Zhi Qiang mentioned in another thread) in the animal forms, complex neigong method, Li Cun Yi's sabre form, and many variations not commonly seen in typical Hebei systems.

I believe the reason some people think Hebei style lacks certain elements comparing to Shanxi's is because they've never been exposed to the complete system -- materials only avaliable to very few indoor disciples. Since Hebei style was taught to many, naturally the practitioners had varying levels of understanding and access to the complete art. The great number of practitioners also meant that there was a greater chance for the style to become watered-down as generations went by, which is what most practitioners are left with today -- the incomplete Hebei system.


This system sounds very interesting, do you think you can find out any more about this?

Jon.


The following is a website of Li Dong Yuan's grandstudent. It contains pictures of some of their animal forms.

http://tw.myblog.yahoo.com/tmacwang_1/archive?l=f&id=8
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Re: xingyi variants, shanxi and hebei?

Postby C.J.Wang on Sun Jun 08, 2008 8:03 pm

Chris Fleming wrote:As for defense, all I am noting is the difference in mindsets. Hebei looks very good for entering. Shanxi looks very good for opportunistic offense. With the Shanxi I practice, there are at least two defensive counters before the attack on most of the elements, rather than Hebei's straight forward attacks. Zhuan shoots right in with Hebei, Shanxi has defensive motions before the attack.



You are judging the style based on outward apperance of the form. The difference between a Hebei style Drilling fist and a Shanxi style drilling fist is that the Shanxi method chooses to express the internal coiling of dantien to the arms and that the Hebei method doesn't. At higher level they are the same.

The straight-forward shoots in version of Zhuan is the common version taught openly. In Hebei systems, depending on the lineage, there are many varations of Zhuan with different footwork patterns and hand postures.

As for fighting flavor and usage, I'd say it depends more on personal preference rather than styles.
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Re: xingyi variants, shanxi and hebei?

Postby beegs on Sun Jun 08, 2008 9:06 pm

jon, ever heard of chou? this is the name i was given as to who taught ma and dai.
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Re: xingyi variants, shanxi and hebei?

Postby Dai Zhi Qiang on Sun Jun 08, 2008 10:27 pm

beegs wrote:jon, ever heard of chou? this is the name i was given as to who taught ma and dai.


Never heard of it, can you provide the Chinese characters for the name?

Jon.
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Re: xingyi variants, shanxi and hebei?

Postby nianfong on Sun Jun 08, 2008 11:07 pm

yue fei being the origin of xinyi is as dubious as zhang san feng being the origin of taichi.

from my sources, I've heard that guo yun shen first "stole" the beng quan from li luo neng, or was at least just taught a beng quan. he then went to prison (work camp), and then trained it continuously in shackles, and after he was release, he was invincible with his beng quan. until li luo neng sent liu qi lan to fight him, and liu qi lan beat him with a pi quan. then guo yun shen learned from either liu qi lan, or li luo neng (dpeends who you hear it from), and rounded out his other elements, becoming the invincible monster that he was.

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Re: xingyi variants, shanxi and hebei?

Postby C.J.Wang on Sun Jun 08, 2008 11:46 pm

nianfong wrote:yue fei being the origin of xinyi is as dubious as zhang san feng being the origin of taichi.

from my sources, I've heard that guo yun shen first "stole" the beng quan from li luo neng, or was at least just taught a beng quan. he then went to prison (work camp), and then trained it continuously in shackles, and after he was release, he was invincible with his beng quan. until li luo neng sent liu qi lan to fight him, and liu qi lan beat him with a pi quan. then guo yun shen learned from either liu qi lan, or li luo neng (dpeends who you hear it from), and rounded out his other elements, becoming the invincible monster that he was.

-Fong


The story I read in a Japanese MA magazine is that after Guo kicked alot of asses with his Beng Chuan, he went to his teacher Li Luo-Neng who said to him that "you might be good, but you are still no match for your Xinyi brother Che Yi-Zhai." Guo then went to Shanxi to try out his skills against Che, and was defeated two or three times in a row by Che's Pi Chuan. (Che was an expert with Pi while Guo masterd the use of Beng. )

Before the match with Che, Guo only knew the five elements and didn't think the animal forms were necessary. He then stayed at Shanxi and learned the animal forms as well as neigong training.
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Re: xingyi variants, shanxi and hebei?

Postby GrahamB on Mon Jun 09, 2008 2:18 am

Dai Zhi Qiang wrote:
Pandrews1982 wrote:There is no documents of any kind related to Yueh Fei having attained any mastery of empty handed arts (yes, I know that as a soldier he of course was going to be well versed in some type of hand to hand combat, Shuai Chiao is very possible), but at that period warfare was more done with spears, bows and arrows and other type of projectiles and long range weaponry.


I keep hearing this argument used. With all due respect, this is a classic example of people taking what they consider "martial arts" today and looking hundreds of years back into history and expecting to find the same thing. It's just not going to happen. Of course there was no record of Yu Fei doing empty hands arts. When you were a General, or a soldier, in the Song dynasty going into battle you'd probably be training with weapons 99% of the time - without a weapon in a battle you were no use to anyone. Like you say - spear was the favourite for non-projectile weapons around the time of Yu Fei, who was mainly fighting Jin cavelry without any cavalry of his own. Ideally, what you'd want against that is a bloody long stick with a sharp bit on the end. Projectile missiles would be even better, but cavalry can close the gap very quickly.

As I'm sure has been pointed out many times - XIngYi/XinYi methods are essentially spear techniques done without a spear, so they can be used in civil life, where the carrying of weapons has been banned, but without losing all that training you got from learning to use a weapon. Over the hundreds of years that have passed in its evolution (its still hundreds of years even if we start its evolution with just Ji Long Feng, which is fine by me, since he's the first documented practitioner. I don't have any particular attachment to a Chinese folk hero, since I'm not Chinese).

The fact that there's no evidence of Yu Fei doing unarmed martial arts doesn't preclude him from being the founder of anything. It's so long ago in history that it's impossible to prove what he did found, if anything, but say for a moment he was the founder of XingYi (under whatever name he or his soldiers called it) - would it look like what we call XingYi/XinYi today? No probably not, but would the ideas it contained be found in what we call XingYi/Xin Yi today? I'd say yes. A lot of XingYi/XinYi methods make a lot more sense once you have a weapon in your hands.

Really old martial arts are never the product of just one person, just one mind. They've been passed on and refined over generations - people have added and subtracted to make them better and better, that richness and evolution is part of the reason why they're good and should be celebrated. Until Wu Shu happened and the whole thing went to shit, of course ;)

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Re: xingyi variants, shanxi and hebei?

Postby Pandrews1982 on Mon Jun 09, 2008 3:03 am

There is no documents of any kind related to Yueh Fei having attained any mastery of empty handed arts (yes, I know that as a soldier he of course was going to be well versed in some type of hand to hand combat, Shuai Chiao is very possible), but at that period warfare was more done with spears, bows and arrows and other type of projectiles and long range weaponry.


Xing Yi is said to have developed from armed methods not the other way around. My school teaches traditional weapons (as well as archery) and we are always told that the weapons would have held greater importance than unarmed methods in the past. TYhe main weaponof Xing Yi is spear. It si interestign if you have been taught traditional weapons such as spear or zhanmadao (horse chopping sword) that these methods link directly back to the Sung dynasty when the chinese were fighting Jin/Kin (nomadic northern tribes known as the Jurchen who were not at that time ethnic chinese and they broke the northern sung dynasty captured Kaifeng and started their Jin Dynasty), for example why have a "horse chopping sword"? The Jin were nomadic horse archers and lancers, the northern steepes were the traditional horse breeding lands. The chinese had relatively few horses due to the loss of northern lands so Yue Fei developed infantry tactics to beat cavalry using spears, pole arms and specialist weapons. There are weapons techniques in Xing Yi to dismount cavalry, disable horses, pierce armour etc where did these come from? Not from anyone after Ji Long Feng as there were few pitched battles on the same scale using these types of weapons (superceeded by firearms) during the Qing dynasty. But these traditional strategies wouldn't have been forgotten by Yue's close colleagues and family who served with him. After his murder (killed awaiting trial for treason) his family and close officers fled and hid, China is a big place so it isn't so hard to believe that a family art and tactics held by key persons stayed hidden so long. Yeu Fei was demoted yes but I heard this was due to the corrupt government, the Jin payed off officials to discredit Yue, who stood in their way.

He was demoted a number of times and eventually charged with treason; despite commanding an army large enough to take the Sung Dynasty or his own Yue traveled back to the capital and awaited his trail despite knowing the risks. By the way Yue Fei become a national hero after his death, he was given a traitor's burial and only many years later did the government back down and the emperor ordered a new tomb be erected to Yue Fei (which still exists). Just to reiterate also that the Juchen who he was fighting were not a Chinese minority but a state and people of their own (this is well documented), maybe they are thought of now but apparently anyone who lives on lands which were at one time Chinese is a Chinese minority, something I think at least the Tibetans and Mongols might disagree with of not other groups.

Anyway I didn't say Yue Fei created Xing yi in my post. Look carefully, read it properly, I labeled it as a standard lineage down to Li Cun Yi you can find this from many sources. I've given the name Yue Fei as a possible starting point, from which the armed methods of Xing Yi may have had some influence from and I have noted that there is no documented link for approximatelty 500 years. As far as I'm aware there are still people in the area of Zhongnan Mountain who practice Yuechiaquan so there may be a link between this and Ji Long Feng. Its all half truths and speculation but you can see the same threads in most linages people tell so there has to eb something in there. martial arts aren't often plucked from the ether and created on the spot, they are evolutions of earlier ideas and methods. I believe it is liekly that what we call Xing Yi came from weapon based tactics developed in the Sung Dynasty

Ji Long Feng is (as far as I'm aware) the first documented Xing Yi practitioner and likely to be the founder of what we would call Xinyi. As far as I'm aware Cao Ji Wu is documented in official records as he ranked in the imperial martial examinations and was given a post within the military/local government. I can't confirm this, its what I've read and been told. If you have convincing arguements otherwise let me know.

Take for example, how could a style remain hidden for 500 years? this is impossible. Practitioners were/are proud of their arts and would like to at least made it clear that what they do (Xinyiliuhequan) is unique and worthy of recognition.


People hide things for a number of reasons, most of all self preservation. There are hundreds of family styles in China which westerners have probably never heard of, China is bigger than Europe so its quite easy to think that actually a few people scraping existance in a mountainous region of shanxi may not have shouted from the rooftops that their art was number one, and even if they did maybe no-one heard them. Xing yi developed in Shanxi, Henan and Hebei provinces, until recent times half of China proabably didn't know or have access to people who taught Xing Yi, and how many people in the west have access to good Xing Yi? There are chinese masters that don't teach openly too,there are probably lots of very good xing yi guys in china who do not teach openly and people have never heard of them.

At the end of the day it comes down to what you believe and what you discount. If you dismiss everything without looking closely then of course everything is ridiculous and your teacher knows best. I'm interested in the evolution of the art from what it was into what it is now, most people think it was always how it is and everything comes down from one source - life is more complex, maybe Dai long bang learnt from Coa ji Wu, Li Zheng and the Niu family as well as his own familiy styles? Maybe his xinyi was a fusion of these? Ji Long Feng had already been in the Ming army and was an expert with spear before he created Xinyi, what other influences did he have? We can never prove these things but maybe people have different views This is the kind of thing I'm interested in finding out, I'm no expert but I'm not discounting anything either just because my teacher may have told me something this way or that way.
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Re: xingyi variants, shanxi and hebei?

Postby Dai Zhi Qiang on Mon Jun 09, 2008 4:05 am

I agree with some of your points regarding Ji Long Feng basing his empty handed art (Xinyiliuhequan) with his spear and also the history you discussed relating to the Song dynasty is good also, though you discredit yourself referring to Cao Ji Wu, Niu Xixian and also Yueh Fei's connection to Xin Yi/Xing Yi.

See the other articles I posted. I am not saying they are the be all end all, but they definitely put a few interesting points across.

Jon.
Last edited by Dai Zhi Qiang on Mon Jun 09, 2008 4:27 am, edited 2 times in total.
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