xingyi variants, shanxi and hebei?

[Aged Tiger]

thanks guys.

no need to get into which arts have what in this thread (although i guess it's bound to happen), just trying to trace things back.

so did Che Yizhai, Song Shirong and Song Shide all learn from Li luoneng as well?

Yes, they did.
Any system of XY is potentially devastatingly effective. Depends on the practitioner and the quality of instruction. Hebei's special quality imo is its simplicity - one can develop more quickly in terms fighting skills. Shanxi style's special quality is a more in depth repetoire of neigong methods for building internal power for fighting, but it takes a little longer.

Song style to me has seemed to be the bridge between Shanxi and Hebei. The shapes are more similar than in Che, but Song style is of course and much smaller frame and a totally different shenfa.But for example they both use the palm in Pi Jin and opposed to the fist in Che style which is an obvious sign of it's similarity with older Dai methods. When you look at various players from both Shanxi and Hebei youre bond to see some individuals from both that possess delightful skill. Ive seen some really wack Shanxi and some atrocious Hebei.

As a Hebei player theres nothing wrong with researching some of the more traditonal systems to see what elements may have not made it down the "pipeline", and as a Shanxi player one can easily see that the Hebie style does in fact put out more "winners" sooner due to its simplified approach.

Well, I'm just an old nobody, but I have to agree with Coach 100%. Good eye and assessment Dai, I've always thought that Che style fell somewhere between the two.

The point is learning to fight well right? Not about who looks better than who while doing it. I'll take a lucky shot or the guy falling down on his own any day of the week..... Xingyi works, period..... with the right teacher...... AND hard work.....

Chas

[Aged Tiger]

Gentlemen it has become my opinion that the only complete study and practice of XY is the research of all of the methods. This pretty much the approach in the system I train. We're all unique so you research them all and find what wprks best for you.

Coach,

Speaking of research, can you recommend any books or translations on Dai style as a reference?

Thanks,

Chas

[Coach DAi]

I've always thought that Che style fell somewhere between the two.

Actually Chas, Che styles lies not between but before. Dont know of any translations available. Accessibility is a factor. Only way is to find a teacher.

[Aged Tiger]

As in between Dai and Hebei/Shangxi right?

Thank you anyway,
Chas

[Coach DAi]

To the best of my knowledge, yes.

[beegs]

people get all pissy about lineage and stuff, but really, looking back at some famous xy peoples personalities, it is with good reason that the whokle system wasnt shared with them or a modified version was taught to them, etc, and its even more impressive that many went on to fill in those gaps with their own ideas and made formidable systems, etc. we will probably clearly never know who learned exactly what, but from being a teacher myself, i see many different personalities, some train with me for longer times than others, and they still dont get it, other pick stuff up very quickly, and some others just have personalities that you decide what you will share and what you wont, so this is no different in the past, not everone that studied with li had the same ideas, same knowledge, same skills, etc, therefore theirs different versions

to answer the original question, besides che and song and dai being all in shanxi, theeir is another version as well, i forgot the family name, i am sure tadzio and jarek and jon know.

alot of guys who clearly teach hebei, claim they teach shanxi method, are they riding any coattails?

as a matter of fact, not many shanxi methods are here in america and even fewer are trying to become famous,

[Dai Zhi Qiang]

I'm not going to act like I know more than I do, but having trained Shanxi and Hebei methods, I can say that the Shanxi is much more sophisticated and circular. Hebei is good and powerful too, but many practitioners seem to want to make their movements very hard like karate and not learn the style to it's fullest extent. I find the Hebei style to be defensively lacking too.

This is a unfounded statement and this could be true of any art with a bad teacher, Hebei Xing Yi Quan is very good, so is Shanxi Xing Yi, each have their own respective flavours.

I would have to agree there is some horrible Hebei Xing Yi Quan out there and in appearance it looks rather hard and rigid, though I won't name anyone, lol.

Jon.

[beegs]

i have to agree that saying hebei is lacking defensively is way off base, and again, we only had access to a handful of teachers teaching hebei in the states, so again, its whos interpretation you learned and how much they wanted to share

[Dai Zhi Qiang]

Gentlemen it has become my opinion that the only complete study and practice of XY is the research of all of the methods. This pretty much the approach in the system I train. We're all unique so you research them all and find what wprks best for you.

Coach,

Speaking of research, can you recommend any books or translations on Dai style as a reference?

Thanks,

Chas

There are no books in the English language on Dai Xin Yi Quan, period. The only resources you will find anything is of course Jareks (http://www.chinafromtheinside.com) and my blog http://daixinyi.blogspot.com/ though there is really nothing of history on my site yet, I have only covered some basic training principles, terminology, etc.

I met with Cao Ji Zhi (One of Jarek's old Dai teacher. The other one being, Huo Yongli) and he gave me 2 of his books and showed me the draft for his 3rd book. Alas all 3 are in Chinese, so it is going to come down to who has got the time to translate them.

I have many articles on Dai Xin Yi Quan, but they are all in Chinese, but if someone on the board wants to do some work I will consider giving them a copy. Before I gave a lot of articles out, but people never really got back to me, so I am lucky I never gave anyone a copy of any of my Quan Pu to translate, I would rather just pay someone to get it done.

Jon.

[C.J.Wang]

There's a Hebei Xinyi lineage in Taiwan passed down by Li Dong-Yuan, who was a direct student of Li Cun-Yi.

The system contains praying mantis and crane (like Dai Zhi Qiang mentioned in another thread) in the animal forms, complex neigong method, Li Cun Yi's sabre form, and many variations not commonly seen in typical Hebei systems.

I believe the reason some people think Hebei style lacks certain elements comparing to Shanxi's is because they've never been exposed to the complete system -- materials only avaliable to very few indoor disciples. Since Hebei style was taught to many, naturally the practitioners had varying levels of understanding and access to the complete art. The great number of practitioners also meant that there was a greater chance for the style to become watered-down as generations went by, which is what most practitioners are left with today -- the incomplete Hebei system.

[Josealb]

Lets see...you got lots of people learning hebei and its very open and popular. Yes, it only logical that if theres more and more people learning the stuff, the better the chances of it getting watered down and that some get incomplete stuff. But, why is it popular in the first place? the good part of the idea that something is passed down to a lot of people during several generations, is that most of those people are going to go out there and test it, with each other and others, and eventually discard whats proven not usable, and keep and improve what works.

On the other side of the table, you see something passed down with caution, in order to maintain its quality. It does a pretty damn good work in keeping the good stuff and almost nothing gets watered down. But, the downside is that a small group, concerned in keeping methods to themselves as well as refining them, wont have the level of exposure that the bigger group has...and wont have the chance of testing things over and over with different people, discard what doesnt work and keep what does. Remember that im not talking about shen fa methods, wich can be perfected alone without exposer, but the application of those methods, the fighting side.

For example...."this works....i tested it...ill translate it back to method and principle and train the hell out of it...instead of training the hell out of a method, and not really exposing it to a big group". In a nutshell.

Then again, this modern times its really easy for people to get in touch with each other, and the whole "keep things secret" way of thinking is not used anymore. Like us EFers...you give any one of us a chance to test our stuff, and we jump at it, we look for them. Just my opinion, anyways.

[nianfong]

if I remember correctly, li luo neng learned from the dai family, then started xingyiquan. he went to his home province hebei first, taught a bunch of people, then went to shanxi and taught some people. then he went back to hebei, and continued teaching there. So pretty much, hebei style is most directly what li luo neng practiced, or raised at least.

if you all remember your history correctly, xinyiliuhe started in shanxi province. I think this is why li luo neng went back to teach it there. and so shanxi style probably integrates more of the original xinyiliuhe stuff in--which is likely where the differences come from.

-Fong

[nianfong]

and I have to say... saying hebei being bad defensively just means the person who was not defending right did not know how to use it.

[beegs]

just because li went to teach here or their doesnt mean anything, again the stuff even today is very closed door and selective, whether thats good or bad is another issue, but just stating that so and so taught here or their doesnt prove what they taught. If Li just learned from Dai then went to hebei, what had he learned at that point, why did he come back to shanxi, also what did he teach in hebei?

i think the form mind boxing was created in part due to the need for quicker skills,

For centuries Shanxi was a center of trade and banking, and the term "Shanxi merchant" (晋商 jìnshāng) was once synonymous with wealth; the well-preserved city of Pingyao, in Shanxi, also shows many signs of its former dominance as a center of trade and banking. The Last and possibly most impressive economic and culutural contribution delivered by the Shanxi Merchants was the Invention and Establishment of the First National Drafts Bank, by Shanxi Trader Wei Lutai from Pingyao in Shanxi.
Turning Pingyao and Shanxi Merchants into the Bankers of China made them rank among the most powerful people in the Nation and Vital to the Empire. The year 1828 AD invention of the first bank in Pingyao, Rishengchang ensured the prosperity of Shanxi Province well into the 20Th Century,

many of the famous figures were involved with bodyguard work.

[C.J.Wang]

Jose:

I can see that you are approaching the subject from a Westerner's practical point of view, which is great in my opinion. I also believe in sharing knowledge and exchanging information with others so that everybody can all improve.

But in CMA, the practice of withholding vital information or "secret teaching" from the majority has always existed and probably always will. It has been done for various purposes, which included ensuring combat success and maintaining pride, face, and dignity.

The reason certain techniques or skills are considered "secret teaching" is because they have been battle-tested and proven extremely effective by masters of the previous generations. In other words, the refining process has already been painstakingly done countless times during the formative era of the style.

It'd also be wrong to assume that people who knows the secrets always hide behind closed doors either. Since secret teaching usually consists of detailed internal body mechanics, those who got it can freely utilize it against others and test it in public. They don't need to worry much that someone might "steal" the secret because without explanation, it'd be very difficult to see what's really going on.