"Judo is the ultimate in martial arts." - Dave Camarillo

[wiesiek]

in my opinion pure gymnastic is the best for bilding foundation for future development,
and
1.- in judo dojo it is /or should be /
2- because figts are "cyvilized" as much as possible - you figt as much as possible
3.- you learn sets quite effective standing/ground tech.

is this 3 points make judo "ultimate" m.a.?
i`m not 100% shure
but
for shure judo is very good starting point

[everything]

for sure. agree with everyone else. judo covers more ranges and is a faster game. never thought about bjj approach as "lazy" but ne waza rules really do encourage faster action - unless the judoka just does the turtle. there are pros and cons as with all approaches.

[everything]

Dave Camarillo: My father was my first sensei. That being said I grew up like the creator of Judo (Jigoro Kano) wanted me too. I was ingrained in Judo as a child. It became a part of my life early on. This is why Martial Arts are so important. If the child has a chance to "choose" their path, they seldom choose what is good for them. They will tend to eat candy all day and play video games. But if they are engulfed in an art from the beginning they will grow up with more than just rotten teeth. They will be great human beings and great citizens of their country. I believe the path to relieve the problems facing our world today starts in the home, and Martial Arts is a great aide to that progress!

i thought this was most interesting. most of us here with kids have expressed that our kids are seldom interested in the arts we train. i've seen the same thing happen with all the freinds i know who train and also have kids. i sorta felt that i would take the approach of "it's a privilege" and keep it special, so that my kids might be interested. (my daughter loves conditioning, but isn't so excited about jibengong).

but this quote sorta touches on the direction i've been heading in anyway, which is to say that since my kids are home schooled, training martial arts with me is about the only option i have to offer them in terms of PE and also participating with other kids in a social way outside of play with the neighborhood kids. in other words, they need to be active anyway, so i'm just gonna force them to do some training whether they like it or not.

I agree. My kids like specific activities but they need to be forced to do stuff and exposed to stuff or else they'll never know about it and may easily prefer playing a video game. MA isn't forced but they already like fake fighting Dad so sooner or later there'll be some kind of training.

[wiesiek]

How to attract children to regular training
is very dificult and very ofen pointles game
simply there is no fixed rules

It took me 20+ years and i almost give it up...
eventually i "win"
and
my daughter has 4 years TJ training alredy /i don`t count couple of years pure gimnastic in early years/
and hopefully she became really involved in it

[Ralteria]

It is an extremely difficult beast. Getting children to train is like herding cats. My son shows interest for a couple weeks but won't practice unless I make him. My daughter shows interest until it's time to learn something. I don't want it to be a punishment. If he is interested he is, if not thats cool too.

I'm just trying to plant the seed.

[grzegorz]

Locally (Ireland) I would say yes. Judo in particular is dropping away. It amazes me that so many people today are foaming at the mouth to study BJJ, but when you say "Well, why not Judo?" you are usually greet with a snort derision.

I think BJJ (and MMA too) is far superior at marketing than Judo.

I think Judo needs to be promoted better.

Yeah I'll never get that, but I suppose the reason is ground fighting.

Where as Judo produces some good ground fighters BJJ produces nothing but that.

I partly blame the Olympics. I hear that they wanted less newaza for the Olympics since throws are more exciting to watch than someone trying to pass guard. Then again although pinning is tough and it's good for ground and pound, in MMA a pin by itself is nothing.

[everything]

I partly blame the Olympics. I hear that they wanted less newaza for the Olympics since throws are more exciting to watch than someone trying to pass guard. Then again although pinning is tough and it's good for ground and pound, in MMA a pin by itself is nothing.

I disagree with this pinning vs. sub argument. Not that subs aren't great and necessary to learn, but in mma as a spectator sport, I think we're getting back to the future. Pinning + gnp is more prevalent and in general a better strategy for most fighters, especially given the growing wrestling base. A good sub these days seems to happen mainly from a wide disparity in ground skill. Sure, Anderson Silva and Fedor sub a lot. GSP, Machida, and far lesser fighters than them don't do it much, even when they have bjj blackbelts. Part of the reason, I suspect, is the incentives for 1) Fight of the Night and 2) KO of the night outweigh 3) sub of the night by 2:1. Slugging doubles your chances for a bonus. The ratios of wins by (T)KO:sub are increasing over time, compared to early days. Also, fighters know standup is more entertaining to crowds. It's the judo tournament history, rewritten, with fewer restrictions.

[grzegorz]

I disagree with this pinning vs. sub argument. Not that subs aren't great and necessary to learn, but in mma as a spectator sport, I think we're getting back to the future. Pinning + gnp is more prevalent and in general a better strategy for most fighters, especially given the growing wrestling base. A good sub these days seems to happen mainly from a wide disparity in ground skill. Sure, Anderson Silva and Fedor sub a lot. GSP, Machida, and far lesser fighters than them don't do it much, even when they have bjj blackbelts. Part of the reason, I suspect, is the incentives for 1) Fight of the Night and 2) KO of the night outweigh 3) sub of the night by 2:1. Slugging doubles your chances for a bonus. The ratios of wins by (T)KO:sub are increasing over time, compared to early days. Also, fighters know standup is more entertaining to crowds. It's the judo tournament history, rewritten, with fewer restrictions.

My point is it's easier to pin someone when that's all you're doing.

Keeping someone pinned while hitting them with your other hand is much harder. For example the recent Bagua vs. 52 vid where Lyte has the mount, once he starts striking Maoshan escaped the mount and Maoshan stated that he has no ground game.

Also in BJJ you do eventually learn how to pin well at the advanced levels. Blackbelts, Brownbelts, etc. are very good at controlling from the top, tiring out their opponent and setting them up. Also the mount and taking the back gives you the most point in BJJ competition.

My point is young men can watch the UFC and then go to a BJJ gym and the see the same stuff, where as if they go to a judo class they might not be able to make those same connections.

To me personally judo, bjj and sambo are all one and the same.

[everything]

yeah i see what you're saying. there is a really direct association between mma ground and bjj class.

not so much with judo or any kind of throwing/takedown techs. it's difficult to spot what's happening in real time. also, there are various styles of clinch fighting used. people just know someone got thrown. and then it doesn't finish the fight.

i have to pay more attention to pinning in bjj. they will sometimes throw in a pointer that i probably should've written down.

[everything]

I finally got to roll in bjj starting from standing instead of on the ground and it was similar to judo but different. My impressions:

- No one really did any gripfighting whereas judo it's massive gripfighting.
- People's takedowns sucked, even the ex wrestlers. However, people's anti-takedowns were good so maybe that was it.
- The wrestlers like single leg but most people have a good sprawl.
- There is some just pulling guard to kind of cut to the chase. No one really seems to care because they want to get to rolling. Pulling guard is pretty natural when people are leaning over, considering the context. I went for sacrifice throw instead but would've saved energy just pulling guard as that's where I ended up. But... I'm gonna keep working these throws now...

All of that boosted Camarillo's arguments in my mind. If people bothered learning better throws they would do themselves a favor. I think it'll make me have more of a ground mindset at judo and more of a throw mindset at bjj. It should be seen as one art like you said. That Dan Camarillo vid is awesome.

[johnwang]

How do you train at home by yourself if you are a Judo guy?

[everything]

IMA forms

[fuga]

I finally got to roll in bjj starting from standing instead of on the ground and it was similar to judo but different. My impressions:

- No one really did any gripfighting whereas judo it's massive gripfighting.
- People's takedowns sucked, even the ex wrestlers. However, people's anti-takedowns were good so maybe that was it.
- The wrestlers like single leg but most people have a good sprawl.
- There is some just pulling guard to kind of cut to the chase. No one really seems to care because they want to get to rolling. Pulling guard is pretty natural when people are leaning over, considering the context. I went for sacrifice throw instead but would've saved energy just pulling guard as that's where I ended up. But... I'm gonna keep working these throws now...

All of that boosted Camarillo's arguments in my mind. If people bothered learning better throws they would do themselves a favor. I think it'll make me have more of a ground mindset at judo and more of a throw mindset at bjj. It should be seen as one art like you said. That Dan Camarillo vid is awesome.

Remember that both BJJ and Judo are sports and their respective scoring systems emphasize different skills sets. There is no ippon in BJJ. It just earns you 2 points while, as Greg said, a mount will earn you 4. So if you are playing the competitive points game, the throw has less potential value. Outside of the sports venue, everything is different.

On a side note, we've been training more takedowns lately in anticipation of the US Open.

[wiesiek]

How do you train at home by yourself if you are a Judo guy?

i use S.C follow you, lke:
- i try hang on tree ,/i really thank you for this one!/
- kick the tree /front kick, inner-outer sweeps/
+ old judo belt around the tree and i can try almost any kind of throw/sweps

for over all conditionig - 16 nei dan exe. /from X.I./ or 8 brocades
bagua circle w. and stepping
/im not running recently/
but
on the end i have to admit that i don`t think it is "pure" judo
i would call it:
J.W.S. - judo wiesiek style