How to use internal power in throwing?

[johnwang]

deleted

[GrahamB]

[Bao]

Nah, that was fake. He clearly throwed himself there.

[CaliG]

He locked dude's arm, blocked his hip and used the turning of his body to throw him.

The question is how is that different from "external" throwing arts?

For example, this...

[GrahamB]

The question is how is that different from "external" throwing arts?

Does it matter to anybody except Mr Wang?

[Sprint]

A long time ago I was involved in judo. We used to spend a lot of time practicing throws, over and over. We would work on how to create openings, tactics and such, ground work techniques etc. There was also a strong element of physical conditioning, stamina work. A lot of work was put in to arm strength. Like I say it was a long time ago and I have no idea if methods have changed significantly since then.

Since learning yi quan most emphasis is put on developing and learning to use so called internal power. What this consists of is the ability to use the entire full power of the body over a fraction of a second. That means either total exertion or total relaxation in the time it takes to snap your fingers (actually maybe a bit faster). So for throwing, if I think back to my judo days, I would want to destabilize my opponent to get an opening. With internal power I can do this faster and with more force because I specifically train how to use all my muscular power to either push or pull. The crucial advantage in my opinion is the control of that process from full on power to "off" happens incredibly fast. So you can't tell if I am for real or just making a ploy because all the power is there, I let you feel it - you have no choice but to react to it because the force is so great and when you do I have you.

That's the theory anyway, maybe I should go back to my old club and try it out, ha ha.

[middleway]

I think this sort of throw is fairly typical of IMA throwing that i have experienced ...

As far as i am concerned IMA throwing consists of 'Tie them up slam em down and stamp on em'.

How this is different from many 'external MA's' .... i dont really know. There Sure are some Judo guys i have met that would put the majority of so called IMAists to shame regarding throwing skill(but not all ...)

Cheers
Chris

[Bao]

If you are a damn good thrower, you can call your method whatever you want. People will still believe that you can throw and believe in your method.

Wai means yang on the outside and yin on the outside, nei means yin on the outside, yang on the inside. This means nei tries to restore its force and not show to much on the outside "hiding" the intent. In modern language, nei could just be called "clever use of body dynamics". So methods of waijiaquan could in fact be nei and the methods what many neijiaquan pracitioners use is in fact wai. But clever use of skill is always functional skill. If you are a good thrower, one good throw should not exhaust you to much and people will see no effort. So if you are extremely good at what you do, it should really not matter what you call your method. Your skill should speak for itself.

[Dai Zhi Qiang]

He locked dude's arm, blocked his hip and used the turning of his body to throw him.

The question is how is that different from "external" throwing arts?

For example, this...

Igor Yakimov is the man, no doubt. I see he has a whole collection of Sambo/Russian Judo instructional's which look good, especially his leg lock series.

Jon.

[Pandrews1982]

I think the difference would be between using force of your own (external) and using and redirecting the opponent's force (internal).

As always there is probably a cross over, I practice Xing Yi and we definately have techniques that throw based on exerting force upon the opponent and then we have throws in which we manipulate the opponent's balance point or allow them to take themselves off balance.

I'm sure we've all had the feeling of being thrown by someone using sheer strength and position, you try to resist and yet they still take you down. I see this as external throwing and it works in some situations and it can be made to work or the situation can be manufactured. With the internal throw I'm sue most o fus have tried to grab someone or swing at some one or grapple and found our selves on our asses on the floor without knowing how we got there. Its this which I see as internal. this mainly arises as an unmanufactureed opportunity, the guy does something and you move slightly redirect them this way maybe give them the slightest nudge and they are down with no effort at all.

I'm afraid I don't have any videos of my own to show but I'm interested to see what people post.

[johnwang]

Does it matter to anybody except Mr Wang?

It's just when people talked about "internal power", they concentrated on "striking" and not "locking" and "throwing".

[CaliG]

Igor Yakimov is the man, no doubt. I see he has a whole collection of Sambo/Russian Judo instructional's which look good, especially his leg lock series.

Jon.

Yeah he is.

I have a couple of them and from what I've seen the Russian Judo series offers the most bang for the buck partly because it's aimed at people who already know Judo.

The 100 Sambo lessons has some good stuff too, but you may have already seen some of the material if you've been grappling for awhile.

I'm currently training with one of Igor Yakimov's San Fransisco connections and it really blows my mind to see what the Russians have done with Judo. They've really developed some interesting ways to control your opponent first so that he doesn't have a chance to get out of the throw. For example grabbing the leg you're sweeping so that they can't step back and regain their balance.

I think the difference would be between using force of your own (external) and using and redirecting the opponent's force (internal).

As always there is probably a cross over, I practice Xing Yi and we definately have techniques that throw based on exerting force upon the opponent and then we have throws in which we manipulate the opponent's balance point or allow them to take themselves off balance.

I can see where you're coming from, but I also think that all people who achieve high level of throwing ability can do this, because they understand how throws work and they're highly trained so if they go for a throw and the opponent is resisting that angle you just switch into the throw that is going to take your opponent down at a weak angle. That's what one learns to do from training with resisting opponents.

[johnwang]

I think the difference would be between using force of your own (external) and using and redirecting the opponent's force (internal).

If you define "borrow force" = "using internal power" then SC is more "internal" than "Taiji".

For example, if your opponent shoots at your leg, you step back and borrow his force to pull him down (redirect his forward force into downward force). Is that "internal power"? I thought "internal" is not tactic (borrow force is one of the fighting strategy) but body mechanic.

I’m more interesting in understanding how to use “internal power” in throwing instead of borrow force, yield, sticky, follow, … those that I would consider as basic “fighting strategy” that have nothing to do with “internal power generation”.

順人之勢，借人之力：摔跤講究“借勁使勁”，“以化勁”，跤諺有云：”順力破之為巧，逆力破之為拙”。意思都是說，在摔跤中力量的運用主要依靠巧勁。兩人對摔時均在不停地運動，應善於掌握人的運動規律，從而把握對方。例如：對方用右手搶抓我的左偏門，其上體勢必向我左後方運動，我便可藉其力的走向採用克敵招術，將其力化解。 “順勢”“借力”貴在“快”與“巧”。 “快”指以迅雷不及掩耳之勢讓對手防不勝防；“巧”指借力用力的方向、角度、力度要恰到好處。做到這些，首先應懂得人在摔跤中用力的規律和各種摔跤動作的技術特點。 ^l")

Follow your opponent's force is called Wha Jin (borrow force). Against your opponent's force is called brute force (force against force). SC depends mainly on "borrow force".

[Bhassler]

I think the difference would be between using force of your own (external) and using and redirecting the opponent's force (internal).

If you define "borrow force" = "using internal power" then SC is more "internal" than "Taiji".

For example, if your opponent shoot at your leg, you step back and borow his force to pull him down (redirect his forward force to downward force). Is that "internal power"?

順人之勢，借人之力：摔跤講究“借勁使勁”，“以化勁”，跤諺有云：”順力破之為巧，逆力破之為拙”。意思都是說，在摔跤中力量的運用主要依靠巧勁。兩人對摔時均在不停地運動，應善於掌握人的運動規律，從而把握對方。例如：對方用右手搶抓我的左偏門，其上體勢必向我左後方運動，我便可藉其力的走向採用克敵招術，將其力化解。 “順勢”“借力”貴在“快”與“巧”。 “快”指以迅雷不及掩耳之勢讓對手防不勝防；“巧”指借力用力的方向、角度、力度要恰到好處。做到這些，首先應懂得人在摔跤中用力的規律和各種摔跤動作的技術特點。 ^l")

Follow your opponent's force is called Wha Jin (borrow force). Against your opponent's force is called brute force (force against force). SC depends mainly on "borrow force".

That's because SC is a subset of taiji. Taiji does everything that SC does, and adds in striking, kicking, finish moves, and better joint locks. Taiji also has more effective throws, as often times we will break a limb first, or apply chin na to throw an opponent from a position in which they cannot fall safely.

I just wish more SC people would take off their silly jackets and practice fighting in a more realistic manner. That's why I say this-- I don't want to offend anyone, I just want to help...

[Jake]

I just wish more SC people would take off their silly jackets and practice fighting in a more realistic manner. That's why I say this-- I don't want to offend anyone, I just want to help...

Most sincere respect brutha.....

When is the last time you got into a fight with a stranger "on the street" or some other situation where you didn't know this CMF and if he'd kill you or not....and after mentioning when.... What happened???

Again.... Since respect.

Jake.