PH players "under the delusion they can fight"

[Chris McKinley]

Mike,

I'm not going to ignore it....if not for your sake, then for that of the other readers, because there's a point worth driving home here.

RE: "ok so if i take you over to Henry Wang's and tell you to attack him full force and he knocks you on your ass with his thumb, it doesn't count because none of his students are close to him?". Essentially, yes. Who the hell cares what Henry Wang can do? Is he your personal bodyguard? Does he promise to be there in a dark alley when you're getting mugged and fight your fights for you? No??? Then why the hell should you care what kind of parlor tricks he can pull out for demonstration? All that matters is what you can do. Not your teacher, not some long dead legendary guy in China, not your next door neighbor.....just you. And if Henry Wang can teach you and the rest of his students to do that, then great. If not, then he's someone to admire and a historical footnote, nothing more.

Other than that, you're once again referencing a guy who knows a guy who knows a guy....most of us have heard all kinds of cool martial arts stories over the years. Some are true, some aren't. None of 'em matter. All that matters is what you can do....time to start writing your own story.

[H2O]

In case you hadn't noticed, CMC's history is full of a lot of guys who already had real fighting skill before they studied with him. Many of these guys were looking for further levels of refinement and sensitivity than they had currently. To that end, studying with CMC made perfect sense. Keep in mind, though, that it doesn't logically follow that a raw beginner would be able to start with that same material and benefit in exactly the same way.

This is the Paragraph I was referring to in my post, Chris. I did start off as a raw beginner in CMC's Tai Chi. The material I was given did teach me to fight. I can point myself out here as a direct example; not some guy I knew, or a friend of a friend, or I heard on the internet. This was my direct experience.

Do I see the art differently now that I've been around the block a few times? Well, yeah. Do I think people should swear by his stuff alone? No, but I don't think anyone should swear by any one art alone. But can CMC's Tai Chi alone teach someone how to fight? Well yes, yes it can. But you need to realize that there is a lot more to the system then the form and push hands.

Just wanted to clear up that point cause I think you took my other post wrong.

[Chris McKinley]

H2O,

RE: "I did start off as a raw beginner in CMC's Tai Chi. The material I was given did teach me to fight.". And that's the key. You also learned to fight, and not just to refine your push hands.

RE: "But can CMC's Tai Chi alone teach someone how to fight? Well yes, yes it can. But you need to realize that there is a lot more to the system then the form and push hands.". Exactly! That's the point I'm trying to get across to Mike. You gotta learn the fighting material if you want to be able to fight.

I didn't take your other post wrong; I'm right there with you. W.C.C. Chen is a good example. There's plenty o' fighty stuff if you want it, but you gotta look past the 'nothing but push hands' mentality.

[H2O]

True, and I'm not defending what other posters are saying. I''m referring to the CMC system in and of itself. If other people don't have access to the whole system, there's not too much I can do about it.

[ShortFormMike]

"Who the hell cares what Henry Wang can do? Is he your personal bodyguard?"

even though i'll go to his seminars i don't even consider him my teacher. but if anyone puts in the hours he has w/ the singlemindedness he has, i'd be surprised if they didn't get close to his level.

"Other than that, you're once again referencing a guy who knows a guy who knows a guy"

actually i posted a video of him recently. you can see him unbalance at touch. the way my friend describes the years spent with him, the more evil your intent, the scarier it gets for you.

and, again, this skill was developed through form and push hands.

that level of skill is partly why i've bugged the hell out of people until i got 3 push hands groups going.

i've heard and read of teachers w/ this skill, i've felt one myself and he said it's obtained through form and push hands.

of course there may be better ways to train for an attack, but this is the way i prefer to practice.

(and i did say before i have no intention of getting attacked)

[Chris McKinley]

RE: '(and i did say before i have no intention of getting attacked)". LOL. Good luck with that.

[everything]

there is "art" - fascinating in itself.

and there is "emergency preparedness" (of all kinds).

there might be some overlap.

but there might not be.

[ShortFormMike]

RE: '(and i did say before i have no intention of getting attacked)". LOL. Good luck with that.

yes i imagine as a 31yo living in a thuggish-ruggish neighborhood near Microsoft and having never been "attacked" since the 8th grade, that is a lofty goal indeed. i'm sure most would laugh at the thought of never getting attacked in my "hood".

actually scratch that. i was recently attacked by an ankle biter named Gucci. luckily she wasn't trained in Dim Mak but she jumped right out of her mom's Louis Vutton pocket-rat purse and went straight for my Achilies tendon. were her teeth large enough to penetrate my sock, i would have been seriously injured.

[Chris McKinley]

RE: "yes i imagine as a 31yo living in a thuggish-ruggish neighborhood near Microsoft and having never been "attacked" since the 8th grade, that is a lofty goal indeed. i'm sure most would laugh at the thought of never getting attacked in my "hood".". Now, wasn't somebody saying that Taijiquan hasn't been watered down, or pussificated as Gary Romel used to call it? You might as well just wear beige pajamas, drink a banana/broccoli shake, and sing, "I'm an Oscar Meyer wiener".

[Juan]

RE: '(and i did say before i have no intention of getting attacked)". LOL. Good luck with that.

yes i imagine as a 31yo living in a thuggish-ruggish neighborhood near Microsoft and having never been "attacked" since the 8th grade, that is a lofty goal indeed. i'm sure most would laugh at the thought of never getting attacked in my "hood".

actually scratch that. i was recently attacked by an ankle biter named Gucci. luckily she wasn't trained in Dim Mak but she jumped right out of her mom's Louis Vutton pocket-rat purse and went straight for my Achilies tendon. were her teeth large enough to penetrate my sock, i would have been seriously injured.

If this is the case, and you don't plan on testing yourself in sport fighting, why the concern about fighting ability? Just enjoy what you are doing, if you want to test your shit out spar with someone outside of your school and see how it goes.

[I'lls cappuccino]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5r4EfdC ... re=related mr. wang doing no hand push hands ,look at the students .nuff said............that some good cool aid !

[ShortFormMike]

re above. it's a shame that those students of Henry's who post that don't post the same disclaimer as Henry does on his own website which is that "exercise" REQUIRES COOPERATION.

i also think Mr. Wang might be realizing how doing such things would damage his reputation as a high level master and that is why he does it much less (so i'm told).

other students have put it like this to me, "it's bullshit."

but i've met him in person and i've felt yet to feel anyone near his depth. but i doubt he'll ever be my teacher. too expensive and too far away.

as for me doing "watered down taiji". well there are people here who know what i'm up to so i'll not bother addressing that.

[I'lls cappuccino]

iam not a fan of mr.wang but hey man as long as you know its bullshit thats what counts.every ones gots to walk there own path and if your happy and having fun then enjoy the ride. not everyon whant's or can be the next ufc champ .no matter how you slice it .if you whant to be as good as cmc yougot train! if you whant to be bruce lee you gots to train!, if you whant to be a ufc fighter you gots to train! there are no freebees its all hard work .happy training. if you know that you are really puting the gong fu in ,thats all at the end of the day that matters .dont go chasing waterfalls. peace !

[johnwang]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D5r4EfdC ... re=related

I wish he can do this on my 90 lb throwing dummy. I have tried to use LKJ to move my dummy. So far I still can't do it and I'm the same generation as Yang Chen-fu in Taiji (one generation above CMC).

[Bao]

You can divide 99,5% of all martial artists (or "people practicing martial arts") into two different categories:

#1 People afraid to get into fight.
#2 people "under the delusion they can fight"

So what's so special about PH practice?