PH players "under the delusion they can fight"

[C.J.Wang]

My Bagua teacher had a similar debate in Taiwan with a grandstudent of CMC who happens to be a champion in fixed-step and moving-step PH competitions across several weight classes. He believed that PH skills equal fighting skills, but my teacher felt otherwise. Eventualy they decided to cross hand to prove their own points.

Round 1: My teacher told him that he'd throw a back fist to the side of his head, and asked him to deal with it anyway he wished. As my teacher attacked, the guy casually raised his arm as if he was about to start a round of PH. The result? His "relaxed" arm bounced off my teacher's back fist and hit himself in the face.

Round 2: Since grabbing is not allowed in PH competitions in Taiwan, my teacher grabbed the guy's wirst and elbow with both hands, and asked him to get out. The guy struggled and couldn't do it.

PH is useful in training certain aspects of grappling, but it's certainly not the same as fighting.

To say that someone who's good at PH would naturally also be good at fighting is like claiming once you've mastered the art of parallel parking you'd also excel at Nascar racing.

[ShortFormMike]

Chris, I’ll tell you a little about my little experience. I first started studying in a style of Korean mcdojo bullshit. Then I started working privately with a bagua guy from Beijing. I like to read a lot and so i was intrigued by xingyi. ShanghaiJay directed me to a guy who studied xingyi in Taiwan from a couple different masters in the early 60s (he has a certificate from hong’s school but also learned from yuan tao).

So anyway I started learning his xingyi but he showed me some of his taiji and I thought it was so much more interesting. Basically I had a miniature experience of what he had when he went to CMC’s school.

Although CMC’s school had this hippie reputation (it was the 60s after all), my teacher said that pretty much all of his serious students in NYC were already accomplished martial artists. This also seems true of many of his students in Taiwan (Huang SS, Tao Pinghsiang, General Albert Liu, Ju Hongbing, Robert Smith etc) and I read this was true of his students in China. One was a western boxing champ and Cheng was running the Hunan academy for a time.

So anyway that is why I yield to his expertise or the expertise of my teacher when it comes to these things. As I wrote before my teacher did free fighting from age 18-40.

It’s also interesting that he said none of CMC’s NYC students stood a chance against him when he used his xingyi.

So why did has he been a 40 year student of taiji? Well it’s because he’s seen people at high enough levels to convince him.

My teacher constantly refers to Henry Wang when I question taiji’s ability in a fight. He and my good friend (a disciple of Wang) have seen all kinds of experienced fighters completely wither in front of Henry.

That’s good enough for me to know I’m not studying bullshit. Of course if you want to fight, 10 years of xingyi, SC, western boxing, jiujutsu etc will easily beat 10 years of taiji. But since the only fight I think I would ever get in would be some crazy drunken stranger who probably doesn’t know any martial arts, taiji is good enough for me. And this is HIGHLY unlikely as most of my partying days are behind me.

[ShortFormMike]

I also want to mention something i read that i think is true in it's maxim if nothing else.

Robert Smith wrote about seeing CMC and Wang Yen Nien (who he called the 2nd best taiji master in taiwan) doing push hands. he said it was no discredit to Wang that Cheng completely toyed with him. Smith makes the point that there are significant gradations even of high excellence.

so that is what i'm going for. as someone who is not a pugilist, i'd rather try for this super high level of excellence and miss by a mile than do something a bit more practical.

[johnwang]

It's so funny that I have tried to defend TCMA in many forums and made many enemies, but here I'm very sad to hear that people are still talking about "pushing" in 21th century.

[Juan]

Mike,

Take a look at Ashe's sanda fight in the video section. Watch his opponent carefully. He is not particularly skilled, but he is big and aggressive. Now tell me, besides relaxation, how would push hands help against such an opponent? To his credit Ashe was doing well until he got rocked and he is an experienced push hands player and fighter. It's very, very easy to read books and listen to a teacher tell romantic tales about teachers of old and how they could defeat their opponents with a push that would send the opponent flying. However, those tales for the most part are fantasy and we need to understand this. Push hands is an effective tool/drill to get you to relax and feel your opponents center which is very useful for grappling. It is not, however, a form of self defense or fighting.

Juan

[johnwang]

But since the only fight I think I would ever get in would be some crazy drunken stranger who probably doesn’t know any martial arts, taiji is good enough for me. And this is HIGHLY unlikely as most of my partying days are behind me.

i'd rather try for this super high level of excellence and miss by a mile than do something a bit more practical.

I had attitude just like yours when I was young until one day someone had threaten my life and I had to be more realistic. IMO (all opinions are for reference only - not saying you are wrong and I'm right here), The highest level of CMA is not

- to "push", but to integrate "kick, punch, lock, and throw".
- to "yield", but to "run your opponent down".
- to obtain "4 oz force", but to obtain "1000 lbs force".
- to "defeat a drunk man", but to "defeat the best of the best".

[Chris McKinley]

Mike,

I appreciate your taking the time to respond. I can respect that you wanted a little something more than typical McDojo crap, and you seem to have found a study that meets your needs.

RE: "So anyway that is why I yield to his expertise or the expertise of my teacher when it comes to these things. As I wrote before my teacher did free fighting from age 18-40.". Okay....in lieu of direct personal experience, that's understandable. In case you hadn't noticed, CMC's history is full of a lot of guys who already had real fighting skill before they studied with him. Many of these guys were looking for further levels of refinement and sensitivity than they had currently. To that end, studying with CMC made perfect sense. Keep in mind, though, that it doesn't logically follow that a raw beginner would be able to start with that same material and benefit in exactly the same way.

Most of these guys already knew how to fight. Working on refined push hands skills without ever learning and burning in actual combat skills isn't going to produce a functional fighter. It's not some magical shortcut. IME, there's a pattern to every one of the guys who swears by CMC material to the exclusion of all else: it's always somebody else with actual functional fighting skill who's now completely converted to CMC. It's always someone he knows who has all this actual experience and who's opinion he's relying on. It's never the guy himself. You just don't really run across guys who have experienced real combat and who now swear by CMC stuff exclusively and who will claim that it's completely sufficient for that purpose.

RE: "But since the only fight I think I would ever get in would be some crazy drunken stranger who probably doesn’t know any martial arts, taiji is good enough for me. And this is HIGHLY unlikely as most of my partying days are behind me.". Assuming that every need for combat skill in your life is completely under your control, this would make sense. That's not always the case, though. In fact, the most dangerous situations requiring combat skill are those in which you will have no say in whether or not you wish to fight. Still, it's your decision, and at the very least, I very much respect your honesty about what you want out of your training. Best of luck.

[H2O]

I started off as a CMC guy through C.C. Chen's stuff. Did pretty much just that for 6 years before I started cross training. I can tell you from personal experience that Tai Chi alone gave me enough skill to hang with a golden glove boxer for 2 rounds. I lost because I gassed in the second, but he couldn't knock me out and did some damage myself. This was right before I started training outside Tai Chi.

I've learned a lot fo stuff since then, and yes, there's a lot more out there than just Tai Chi, but to say CMC's Tai Chi cannot teach you to fight is just untrue.

FYI, there is very specific fight training in CMC Tai Chi, including a type of Iron Body. Push hands drills are essential to building fighting skill, but you gotta fight too. There's just no getting around it.

[Chris McKinley]

H2O,

RE: "...but to say CMC's Tai Chi cannot teach you to fight is just untrue.". Good thing nobody's said that then. We're just talking about someone thinking that push hands skills alone making one a functional fighter.

RE: "Push hands drills are essential to building fighting skill, but you gotta fight too. There's just no getting around it.". Bingo....and that really sums it up.

[ShortFormMike]

Juan, re: “Take a look at Ashe’s sanda fight ….how would push hands help against such an opponent?

I think very high level push hands and form training would handle him just fine--esp in a real fight. Will I ever reach that level? I highly doubt it. Does 1 in 10,000 adepts reach that level? Probably not. But it has been reached by people and a few people around can verify this. E.g. the minute their opponent touches them, they have no balance and fall.

So as someone who does not believe in chi, trigrams, jing, shen, and stuff like that, I guess my point is let’s not dismiss the real possibilities of the high levels of our arts.

Certainly feeling them for yourself will help convince.

But like I said, I’m trying to reach this level where I can launch people with a touch like Ma Yueliang or Henry Wang etc but I’m sure my zenith will not save me from an experienced street brawler.

[Doc Stier]

Most people today seem to have the image of competitive tournament Push Hands (tui-shou) in mind when they discuss these topics. However, although the rare occasional competitor may display some good tai-chi chuan skills, the average competitor generally does not demonstrate high level tui-shou skills by any stretch of the imagination.

Instead, they usually only demonstrate fine examples of two people simply comparing natural physical attributes, such as the strong overpowering the weak, the swift overcoming the slow, and those who are naturally more aggressive defeating those who are naturally more passive and yielding. In these instances, no genuine skill is responsible for the final outcome of the match.

Additionally, by its intended purpose and stated agenda priorities, the competitive venue game transposes traditional 'push hands' from a viable means to a legitimate combative goal....i.e. developing increasingly greater sensitivity and reaction skills for close contact infighting applications....to the ultimate end in and of itself, totally separated from the greater physical dynamics of unrestricted, real fighting. A mere shadow of the real deal.

As such, to believe that fixed step 'push hands' practices alone can turn one into an effective fighter, without including the practical application of every form set technique in the training as well, is definitely self-delusional, whether in a competition or in a school setting. And it is also a sure fail insofar as developing any serious, unrestricted fighting skill is concerned.

[inky]

its always been hammered to me that push hands is an exercise to improve sensitivity and is not about fighting or sparring. egos (and any competetivness) has to be left at the door and the key is to relax (and relax more), stick, adhere and keep everything circular and build on the counter apon counter without sharp abrupt attacks. As my teacher said to me, your not going to get into a scuff down the pub and suddenly burst into fixed step grasps the birds tail with your attacker.

[Chris McKinley]

Mike,

RE: "I think very high level push hands and form training would handle him just fine--esp in a real fight.". Why? What evidence do you have that would lead you to believe this counterintuitive statement? More importantly, what direct personal experience do you have which would corroborate it?

RE: "But it has been reached by people and a few people around can verify this. E.g. the minute their opponent touches them, they have no balance and fall.". Who exactly? IOW, who, by name, is out there and available for objective evaluation of this claim that, merely by touching an aggressor intent on real harm, the aggressor loses all balance and falls? You see, once again, it's always somebody else that can "verify this". It's never the claimant himself.

Further, let's say for the sake of argument, that such a person can be named and is available for objective evaluation. Let's even throw him the benefit of the doubt and say that he actually can instantly unbalance and cause to fall a determined attacker bent on causing him real physical harm. So what? Is he able to show that he has reproduced that very skill in at least half of the committed students training with him? If not, why not? Plenty of other instructors who can demonstrate real combat skill can make that claim. If the skill is so "high level", as you term it, that it is a statistical aberration and does not appear in any significant number of dedicated practitioners, then it is laughably unviable for real combat training.

Let's keep some perspective here, Mike. There have always been the statistical outliers who can demonstrate all kinds of outstanding skill in any endeavor. For combat purposes, such people are almost entirely dismissable. What matters is the functional skill level that can be reproduced in the average dedicated student with committed practice within a reasonable time period, i.e., months instead of years.

[Juan]

Mike,

RE: "I think very high level push hands and form training would handle him just fine--esp in a real fight.". Why? What evidence do you have that would lead you to believe this counterintuitive statement? More importantly, what direct personal experience do you have which would corroborate it?

RE: "But it has been reached by people and a few people around can verify this. E.g. the minute their opponent touches them, they have no balance and fall.". Who exactly? IOW, who, by name, is out there and available for objective evaluation of this claim that, merely by touching an aggressor intent on real harm, the aggressor loses all balance and falls? You see, once again, it's always somebody else that can "verify this". It's never the claimant himself.

Further, let's say for the sake of argument, that such a person can be named and is available for objective evaluation. Let's even throw him the benefit of the doubt and say that he actually can instantly unbalance and cause to fall a determined attacker bent on causing him real physical harm. So what? Is he able to show that he has reproduced that very skill in at least half of the committed students training with him? If not, why not? Plenty of other instructors who can demonstrate real combat skill can make that claim. If the skill is so "high level", as you term it, that it is a statistical aberration and does not appear in any significant number of dedicated practitioners, then it is laughably unviable for real combat training.

Let's keep some perspective here, Mike. There have always been the statistical outliers who can demonstrate all kinds of outstanding skill in any endeavor. For combat purposes, such people are almost entirely dismissable. What matters is the functional skill level that can be reproduced in the average dedicated student with committed practice within a reasonable time period, i.e., months instead of years.

What Chris said.

[ShortFormMike]

ok so if i take you over to Henry Wang's and tell you to attack him full force and he knocks you on your ass with his thumb, it doesn't count because none of his students are close to him?

i was just doing some push hands today w/ my friend who learned from Zhu Tzuen Hsuan in beijing. he says there are guys there who can do the same thing and the skill is developed through push hands, not fighting.

but actually i think i changed my mind on this whole issue so just ignore all this.