leg loading?

[johnwang]

I don't like to lean back in order to kick either. My opponent can easily run me down if he has momentum.

[H2O]

Here is the lean I'm referring to.

[yusuf]

hey all

thanks to those who wrote with helpful suggestions, most appreciated...

h2o, I have seen and been on the receiving end of a kick to my throat (i am 6' 4) from a ima teacher who did not rotate his back leg, nor lean at all. As Middleway says we are all still stumped by that.

cheers all

yusuf

[H2O]

I don't doubt it, Bro. There's no way I could pull that off though.

I tend to lean for a couple reasons. One is to create a counter balance to generate more force. I'm also not too flexible, so it's a lot easier for me to line up my center over my root if I lean back. Leaning also gives me a longer reach on my kicks, which is nice as I tend to use kicks to keep someone at range until I can enter into a clinch. Last, leaning back on a roundhouse takes your head out of range of his cross, which is a common counter to the roundhouse.

I'm sure there are just as many reason NOT to lean back.

Forgot one. I turn my hip over on my roundhouse and side kick. Leaning helps me turn the hip over.

[Andy_S]

When I first learned MA, (TKD in the UK) we were taught to kick out then bring the leg back to start point....rather similar to what Deus says above about being able to hold the leg out. I see this a bit in some CMA, such as TanTui.* One sees this a lot in so-called TMA - which tend to do a lot of air kicking.

However, when I first travelled to Korea, I noticed that all the guys were power kickers, and kicked through their targets - with this kind of kick, if it very, very difficult to bring the kick back to Point A. When I started MT, this lesson was even clearer.
In Muay Thai they DO lean back with the push kick - to thrust forward with range - but lean back as little as possible from the round kick. Both kicks turn the support foot and hop forward or through.

One good drill is to have a couple of kickers standing and one guy 10 feet in front of them with a big kick shield. The chap with the shield randomly rushes forward at one or the other kicker, aiming to run him down. The kickers has to halt him with a front push kick or step side kick (though the latter is marginally slower and so more easily jammed). This drill ensures that you are "rooted" and able to half incoming, high-speed mass.

*When I asked my first CMA coach - after having done around eight years of other MA - whether I should learn Tantui, he said, "No, it's kids' MA" and started me straight on mantis. And was the most traditionally trained teacher I have ever had.

[johnwang]

In Muay Thai they DO lean back with the push kick - to thrust forward with range - but lean back as little as possible from the round kick. Both kicks turn the support foot and hop forward or through.

IMO, If your opponent runs toward you with full force, you will need to lean forward when you kick in order to stop his momentum, otherwise your opponent's momentum may push you back. It's pretty much like he runs forward and you run forward too - force against force, a head on collusion. You lean your upper body forward so you can "push" your kick into your opponent's body. You can see the body forward leaning in "static" posture training.

http://johnswang.com/Tree_Kick.wmv

Tantui,

Unfortunately Tantui does not have toe push kick. The contact point for the front toe kick is not clear in Tantui. I had to wait until Pao Chuan #3 in order to understand the correct contact point in toe push kick. I have no idea why Tantui does not emphasis on toe push kick. Instead of starting with golden rooster stance with toes pointing "down" and then spring your foot out (an upward curve), you start with golden rooster stance with toes pointing "up" and then push your foot out (a downward curve). The "spring kick" and "toe push kick" has complete different kicking pathes.

[DeusTrismegistus]

If you can't kick someone in the head while keeping your torse upright (mostly so a little lean will happen) then you aren't flexible enough to kick that high.

Isn't kickingthe opponent's head like punching his foot . . . statistically a risky move for most of us? A few exceptional athletes can consistently slip in an ax kick in the heat of a fight . . . but for me, kicks should be low and as merged with stepping practice as possible. I admire the speed and power of this (1:25 on):



but I wouldn't train it or rely on it in a fight (just realizing my own limitations).

Andy kept himself fairly vertical for most of his ax kicks.

I have lost a lot of weight recently and I am now starting to kick at the head again. Before I just didn't have the flexibility. Now that the flexibility is back I find myself kicking to the head again like I used to more often when I was a teenager. This is happening spontaneously I just see the opening and my foot is moving. So far I haven't found it to be much more risky than kicking into the torso. I actually think its easier to catch a roundhouse to my midsection than one to my head. If the kick is set up properly it is very difficult for the other guy to do anything to put you in danger too. I would say it is a riskier move for most but that is no reason not to have it in your arsenal.

[johnwang]

If your opponent has fear and move back, it will fit right into your plan. If your opponent has courage and runs toward you when you use head kick, he may run you down. It's very important for any Sanda/Sanshou coach to tell his guys "always run your opponent down - if you will be killed, at least take your opponent with you to the hell". One valuable "run down" training is not only taking your opponent down, you have to keep running until your hands can touch the wall 20 feet on the other side of the training hall.

[DeusTrismegistus]

When I first learned MA, (TKD in the UK) we were taught to kick out then bring the leg back to start point....rather similar to what Deus says above about being able to hold the leg out. I see this a bit in some CMA, such as TanTui.* One sees this a lot in so-called TMA - which tend to do a lot of air kicking.

However, when I first travelled to Korea, I noticed that all the guys were power kickers, and kicked through their targets - with this kind of kick, if it very, very difficult to bring the kick back to Point A. When I started MT, this lesson was even clearer.
In Muay Thai they DO lean back with the push kick - to thrust forward with range - but lean back as little as possible from the round kick. Both kicks turn the support foot and hop forward or through.

One good drill is to have a couple of kickers standing and one guy 10 feet in front of them with a big kick shield. The chap with the shield randomly rushes forward at one or the other kicker, aiming to run him down. The kickers has to halt him with a front push kick or step side kick (though the latter is marginally slower and so more easily jammed). This drill ensures that you are "rooted" and able to half incoming, high-speed mass.

*When I asked my first CMA coach - after having done around eight years of other MA - whether I should learn Tantui, he said, "No, it's kids' MA" and started me straight on mantis. And was the most traditionally trained teacher I have ever had.

When throws are included leaving a roundhouse out without retracting it is asking to be caught and thrown. Pushing kicks are not retracted though. As for the lean it is present in some things. Like John Wang mentions in the front push kick. The center needs to move forward of the base which makes a slight lean back. I think people mess up when they take it to far and lean too much, you only need enough angle to direct the impact to the ground. In the picture of the roundhouse above it looks to me like the guy isn't very flexible in his hips that direction. If the target steps in and pushes he would be flying back. Also when you lean back in a roundhouse you move your center behind the foot, its clearly visible in the pic. That makes it take longer to move after the kick has landed because you must either fall into your next stance or move your center back over your foot before setting the kicking foot down. It may not seem like the time it would take to do that would matter but it can against someone who is really good.

[johnwang]

IMO, If you use a kick to set up a punch or throw, you will need to lean forward in order to achieve your next goal. in this case, your kick is no difference from just "step in".

[Teazer]

IMO, If your opponent runs toward you with full force, you will need to lean forward when you kick in order to stop his momentum, otherwise your opponent's momentum may push you back.

I agree - if there's any lean it'd be forward, or by keeping the weight a bit forward without leaning.
If they're rushing in, it's also worth getting off the line of their attack before lifting a leg substantially off the ground. Which gets back to reasons for leg loading.

[H2O]

Why would you want to kick someone if they're running toward you? Seems like a bad strategy to me.

[Teazer]

Exactly. Personally, my kicking rule is - only consider kicking when they're not facing you, or they're moving backwards/away.

[johnwang]

Why would you want to kick someone if they're running toward you? Seems like a bad strategy to me.

If you have seen the movie "Braveheart" that when the British horse soldiers ran toward the Scotch soldiers, the Scotch soldiers used their long poles to stick on the ground and allow the British horse soldiers to run into that sharp long poles.

Leg is longer than the arm. If you can kick your opponent, your opponent cannot punch you. Kick can counter any punch. You don't have to kick your opponent. You opponent will run into your kick.

Here is another good example in Anthony Hopkins movie "The Edge" (at 4.25).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G31h5gbazwU

Exactly. Personally, my kicking rule is - only consider kicking when they're not facing you, or they're moving backwards/away.

I believe in "head on collusion - force against force" for striking art and "rear end collusion - borrow force" for throwing art.

[Teazer]

Leg is longer than the arm. If you can kick your opponent, your opponent cannot punch you. Kick can counter any punch. You don't have to kick your opponent. You opponent will run into your kick.

and if the kicker misses, or they avoid the kick, then they are now in close against an opponent who has one foot in the air. If everything works out well, yours is a great strategy. It's a bit riskier than my preference though, but hopefully good training would lower that risk.