Do you train with aliveness?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Do you train with aliveness?

Postby CaliG on Sun Jun 08, 2008 2:54 pm

What do you guys think of this?



Last edited by CaliG on Sun Jun 08, 2008 3:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Do you train with aliveness?

Postby Jake on Sun Jun 08, 2008 2:59 pm

Seems nice,

But the concept is nothing new.

Also I appologize in advance. I stopped watching around 59 seconds into it where the guy starts to pick his nose ;D
Last edited by Jake on Sun Jun 08, 2008 2:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Do you train with aliveness?

Postby CaliG on Sun Jun 08, 2008 4:33 pm

It may not be anything new, but I think if people listened to his general message and applied it to their own training they'd stop asking if "this stuff" can be used in a real fight.
Last edited by CaliG on Sun Jun 08, 2008 4:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Do you train with aliveness?

Postby Jake on Sun Jun 08, 2008 4:34 pm

Right on Bro! I didn't mean any disrespect!

Cheers!!! :)
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Re: Do you train with aliveness?

Postby CaliG on Sun Jun 08, 2008 4:49 pm

No disrepect taken.

Good times.
Last edited by CaliG on Sun Jun 08, 2008 4:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Do you train with aliveness?

Postby ashe on Sun Jun 08, 2008 6:37 pm

i hate the term "aliveness", but the spider-man gi was the shiznit!
Last edited by ashe on Sun Jun 08, 2008 6:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Do you train with aliveness?

Postby Mut on Sun Jun 08, 2008 7:04 pm

ummm..... yup he is speaking about honesty in training me thinks... no argument.
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Re: Do you train with aliveness?

Postby shawnsegler on Sun Jun 08, 2008 7:05 pm

Aliveness, huh....we have come full circle.
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Re: Do you train with aliveness?

Postby soundofwater on Sun Jun 08, 2008 10:56 pm

I believe this is Matt Thornton and Straight Blast Gym. In general, he is spot on.

I do think he is a little extreme in his criticism of "traditional" training IF you understand that traditional training should be performed in real time against resisting opponents once fundamentals are learned (such as being able to fall properly or not punching with your tongue between your teeth and thumb on your palm when forming a fist). You must train progressively against resisting training partners to gain applicable skill. Anything less and it becomes mysticism, IMO, and then subject to possible doubt.

When I was very young, I had two questions that I have spent a lifetime using when involved in any pursuit: What is True? What is worth doing?

You can apply these two questions to MA and it will improve your skill if you continue to ask and answer them using exposure and experience.

There is room for training drills, conditioning, etc. though. Every craft has fundamental motions or actions that are prerequisite to advancement in skill. I do believe they practice "drills" as well.

To speak a language, for instance, you must be able to form the sounds of the language which require repeated practice and exposure yet are not whole words nor even ideas, and many times can be practiced solo once said properly once. But to progress, one must eventually work with a partner who listens and corrects and lets you listen and try to comprehend.
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Re: Do you train with aliveness?

Postby CaliG on Mon Jun 09, 2008 1:05 am

I agree he does tend to talk in absolutes by saying things like there are no benefits to doing forms, patterns, chi saui etc...

I think he does it in part to get people to pay attention to what he is saying.

I don't agree with everything he says but I do think he is pretty scientific in his approach to martial arts and he can explain the concepts behind bjj better than anyone else I've seen and once you know the concepts the details just fall into place.
Last edited by CaliG on Mon Jun 09, 2008 1:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Do you train with aliveness?

Postby Darth Rock&Roll on Mon Jun 09, 2008 1:10 pm

Thornton's Info is good, his delivery and terminology is suspect.

the term "alive" equates to "intention" in traditional arts.

I don't think he has any place making commentary about traditional martial arts which are in the hundreds and years of development and which are past 1000 for cma and hundreds of years for other asian martial arts.

I say he has no place, because he betrays his limited understanding by only cherry picking on those schools from the cesspool that is available to him to pick from.

He'd come across better if he lost the cryptic shit "alive" and just got on with his method. He often spends too much time analogizing this or that and displays a lack of depth when he does this. He should stay on message about the method and quit with the disparaging remarks that he cannot demonstratively back up without having to choose his own targets and there are plenty of those out there.

Having said that, I like SBG materials and like to use the concepts therein, but I could take or leave a thornton lecture, it usually is a lot of talk with very little said and he will try to rename things and claim them as his. a bit scummy in that respect.

most of the good application sbg stuff doesn't have any matt at all in it luckily.
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Re: Do you train with aliveness?

Postby DeusTrismegistus on Mon Jun 09, 2008 1:22 pm

That man pisses me off. I absoutely hate the term aliveness. This is a fad marketing gimick as far as I am concerned and it just further makes an US vs THEM divide between BJJ and other arts commonly used in sport fighting and the "TMA".

Another problem I have is people take this aliveness crap too far. They start to think that if you aren't going 100% resistance then you aren't making progress. That if you aren't hitting 100% then you aren't making progress. At the same time they belittle "dead patterns" yet last I checked many BJJ students practice flow drills. Ita pre arranged pattern right? That means its useless too right? I guess taking turns doing hip throws over and over again until you learn how to do it properly is useless, or any similar drill. Aliveness means training to be rigid and to fight what your opponent is trying to do, because thats the natural reaction, and the only way to get rid of the reaction to fight against it is to go slowly and easily enough to reprogram yourself. Then you after to program yourself to react the same way at increasing intensity. Bah, I hate marketing gimmicks and shit like this and hate that people are dumb enough to fall for the crap, and I hate that people are dumb enough to take perfectly logical simple ideas and completely mess them up.
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Re: Do you train with aliveness?

Postby CaliG on Mon Jun 09, 2008 2:36 pm

He doesn't advocate hitting and resisting at 100%, his term aliveness refers more to timing and unpredictability. (In fact he encourages "slow rolling.")

His accusations of TMA isn't really against TMA as much as it's an attack on people not using "aliveness" (yes I know you don't like the term, but to me it just refers to live training).

On the DVD this is from he tells instructors to do and experiment, for example take a karate class and just teach fixed patterns, forms and stances and then take a different karate class and only teach them things where all the drills are alive. (That is instead of a fixed pattern of punch, punch, kick, you could have punch, pause, punch, kick, kick, so your opponent has to be aware of what's happening instead of just letting muscle memory do the work.) Then after a month have the two classes try their stuff on each other and see what happens. ;)

He also teaches stick fighting, but from what I gather he teaches the techniques and has his students use them rather than learn all the forms, stepping patterns and 2 man drill etc... For example it would be like teaching Xingyi and just teaching 5 fists and its principles and having someone use them boxing style (but not restricting them to just the 5 fists) rather than have someone stand in santi for a year etc...

I agree he knows how to market his stuff, but I also think his ideas explain why MMA fighters develop their skills fast. Anyway don't take his attack on Asian TMA too personally, at the end of the day it's just some food for thought on training methods.
Last edited by CaliG on Mon Jun 09, 2008 3:10 pm, edited 10 times in total.
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Re: Do you train with aliveness?

Postby DeusTrismegistus on Tue Jun 10, 2008 8:33 am

CaliG wrote:He doesn't advocate hitting and resisting at 100%, his term aliveness refers more to timing and unpredictability. (In fact he encourages "slow rolling.")

His accusations of TMA isn't really against TMA as much as it's an attack on people not using "aliveness" (yes I know you don't like the term, but to me it just refers to live training).

On the DVD this is from he tells instructors to do and experiment, for example take a karate class and just teach fixed patterns, forms and stances and then take a different karate class and only teach them things where all the drills are alive. (That is instead of a fixed pattern of punch, punch, kick, you could have punch, pause, punch, kick, kick, so your opponent has to be aware of what's happening instead of just letting muscle memory do the work.) Then after a month have the two classes try their stuff on each other and see what happens. ;)

He also teaches stick fighting, but from what I gather he teaches the techniques and has his students use them rather than learn all the forms, stepping patterns and 2 man drill etc... For example it would be like teaching Xingyi and just teaching 5 fists and its principles and having someone use them boxing style (but not restricting them to just the 5 fists) rather than have someone stand in santi for a year etc...

I agree he knows how to market his stuff, but I also think his ideas explain why MMA fighters develop their skills fast. Anyway don't take his attack on Asian TMA too personally, at the end of the day it's just some food for thought on training methods.


My 100% remark was more directed at people who miscontrue the meaning of the word. I guess part of the reason I hate the marketing stuff is its nothing different than what I have been practicing since I was a child, however we also practice forms, and some fixed patterns, trading techniques, etc. The value of fixed practice and things like trading hip throws, etc is very apparent to me. It seems like he is trying to throw the baby out with the bathwater so to speak.
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Re: Do you train with aliveness?

Postby ashe on Tue Jun 10, 2008 10:31 am

the thing is is that, yes you NEED to work freestyle (and properly taught CMA has always had san da), but without the pieces like standing postures, for those who have the potential, you'll never take your skill from excellent to phenomenal IMO.
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