chousi jin and chansi jin

[cdobe]

Wasn't the specific exercise created by Chen Xiaowang by his own admisson?

[Buddy]

Can o worms opening...
Chousijin is a lengthening of the connective tissue from origin to insertion and connected to the fascial sheath. Chansijin (or luoxuanjin) is a more dynamic whole body spiraling connection utilizing chousijin as a "store and release" mechanism.
Take it or leave it, doesn't matter much anymore.

[AllanF]

Hi Tom

Could you post the link to the video as i can't watch embedded video from youtube in china.

My own teacher talks about chousi as opposed to chansi, saying that chousi is an internal spiral from inside the marrow of the bones and that the external body doesn't really have to move that much if at all for it to be effective where as chansi there is a greater spiral externally which can be felt by the opponent.

Personally i had always thought that they were one and the same so i would be very interested in seeing the videos to help my own understanding of the difference if anything.

Allan

[Daniel]

This is an interesting topic. Thanks, Tom.

I also can´t see the embedded videos, so add the youtube links when you have time, please.


D.

Sarcasm. Oh yeah, like that´ll work.

[jjy5016]

If memory serves me correctly Diepersloot wrote about the distinctions between the two as taught by Cai Song Feng (Mr. Choy) in "Warriors of Stillness, Vol. I".

[AllanF]

Much obliged Tom, you're a gent!

[jjy5016]

[quote="Buddy"] Chansijin (or luoxuanjin) is a more dynamic whole body spiraling connection utilizing chousijin as a "store and release" mechanism.
quote]

Good definition but more specifically luo xuen jing comes from the dan tien or better yet the rotation of the spine sending force outward on a basic level and at it's more advanced level is more reliant on intent and using very small, almost undetectable spiraling. It becomes a very small, refined action that looks as if one is still.

[Buddy]

Agreed. I am not at this skill level.

[Harvey]

I've always been of the belief they are wei/nei or yin/yang couple. Where the practice of chansi jin helps to find and refine the chousi jin, then the chousi jin helps underpin/re-inforce/motivate the chansi jin. The relationship between turning the central axis (mechanical dantian rotation) and turning the centre itself (more internal) also comes into play. But like buddy says not really my level of play at the mo'.

[Buddy]

I suspect the chousijin must be specifically taught. I doubt I could have found it on my own. That said the Yizong folks I've had the pleasure to work with didn't do it as I do it but could do it functionally. The genius of Gao and his heirs, I presume.
FWIW, I learned/refined it through the practice of BKF's Marriage of Heaven and Earth.

[jjy5016]

Once rhe mechanics are properly done then making it smaller depends on intent.

Yi, Yi, Yi, Yi

(to the tune of Spam, Spam, Spam, Spam)

[Brinkman]

I have also been interested in the distinction of these terms “drawing silk and reeling silk” for many years. In my opinion, they define the most profound aspect of so called, “Internal Martial Arts” training. In that regard, these two, “drawing and reeling”, distinguish the levels of training which follow a “body leads mind” to “mind leads body” sequence. In “body leads mind”, drawing silk trains the sensitivity of mind to be directed upon the sensation of body. The concentration of sensitivity (awareness) upon the body triggers a neurological response whereby physical movement begins to emanate from various nervous centers around the body.

It has been suggested that Drawing (Pulling) Silk should be referred to as “chou si gong” not "chou si jin". as "jin" is indicative of the refinement of a physical skill. Whereas reeling silk is primarily the physical and mechanical manifestation thus uses the character "jin" as in "chansijin". Reeling silk may begin spontaneously, produced as sensation reaches a critical mass during "chousigong" traininig.

These distinctions may be understood in terms of the relationship of jing gong and dong gong, “stillness and movement gong” or the integration of three internal harmonies and three external harmonies within internal martial art training.

Marcus

[Brinkman]

whooops..! nice catch Tom........ I re-edited.

[Daniel]

This is an interesting thread. Thanks for your explanation, Brinkman.

On this subject, does anybody have a view and definition on the difference between chanzijing and luoxuanjing?


D.

Sarcasm. Oh yeah, like that´ll work.

[Bodywork]

I've always been of the belief they are wei/nei or yin/yang couple. Where the practice of chansi jin helps to find and refine the chousi jin, then the chousi jin helps underpin/re-inforce/motivate the chansi jin. The relationship between turning the central axis (mechanical dantian rotation) and turning the centre itself (more internal) also comes into play. But like buddy says not really my level of play at the mo'.

I would argue that the perquisite is not in thinking of turning on the central axis but rather around it. Only after that would I consider actually turning.
And winding and pulling is not spiraling. The windings take place across the body line from each foot to the opposite hand. So you have two pairs of windings being pulled through the body around a central line (which in itself is being pulled). All of that is wound in a spiral AROUND the central axis in opposed and oppos(ing) spirals. The real fun begins when the spirals become pronounced and they shear; one from the other, in the center. I would argue against the store and release idea as a driver in this case. It's is not the same as the dantian loading the mingmen, but rather case of a very rapid internal change in winding direction at the origination point which sort of catapults the limbs in an out and anyone and anything that happens to come in contact with them. So the store and release has more to do with a continuing energy that shifts (sort like a gear) into a different direction. When you "shift" back and forth it makes a sort of shear in the middle. It can happen in a split second and can drive a throw or a double palm strike, or "shaking-like" neutralization. in other words, the moment of change acts like shear in neutralizing in or out force or driving-out and pulling-in at the same time.
a)I think if you have no real strength in how you rise and sink to support your central axis line- you're weak before you begin.
b)If you have no real strength in how you pull your windings across the body lines ( the arms and legs are drawing away from and being drawn by the dantien) you’re weak before you begin as well
c)And if you try to spiral around that by turning from your hips, instead drawing through the hips with the dantien- you lose all the spiral power you were trying to gain. Your pulling not spiralling.
They build on each other to be a connected whole.
Not without note is that these paths being pulled in opposition directly coincide with the modern anatomy train paths. The argument being there is an internal tendon pull, bone-to-bone with an adjacent wind in the larger facial planes. It is easy to see how you can pull a line and wind it at the same time and where the wind can go up and be pulled down at the same time in a single limb or along the whole chain. Yin and yang in a limb or a cross line chain being supported by yin and yang along the other cross-line path being supported by heaven/ earth/ man, in the central axis. Now you take that and start to spiral it within and around the central axis. The spirals give their own sense of central balance, while controling anything that contact them. Any contact point can rise and send while sinking and drawing in opposition along any of it's arcs. This happens while having the central axis rise ( uproot) or descend over (suppress) or send from the top while pulling in at the bottom, and so on.. all at the same time you are spirraling. And all of that can change direction in split second and then back again. It launches great kicks and strikes, neutralizes same and throw attempts.
I don’t much care about push hands; this is just a great way to fight with grappling; you control to throw while reining in and knees, elbows and general mayhem; always splitting their energy and controlling them without losing your equilibrium.
Like buddy said- I don't much care about arguing it.
I meet too many guys who write well who can't fight or move at realistic speed to save their lives. Their bodies pretty much nullify any arguments points on contact in one or two ways; either they are an utter waste of time to talk to about internals or they got something. Go out and meet people and feel their power before you follow advice on the internet.