chousi jin and chansi jin

[C.J.Wang]

Seperating waist and hips, and moving from the waist are actually some of the important concepts that my Bagua teacher emphasizes from day one. It was never "hips first, waist later" for me. I learned it painfully by trying to twist from the waist as much as I could while he held on to my hips firmly to make sure that they didn't move an inch.

However, there are also Bagua people who don't move this way and are perfectly happy with utilizing waist and hips as a unit. (Most of them also practice other systems and simply use those body methods in their Bagua.)

[D_Glenn]

In Bagua the waist is initially weak in the new practitioner and hard to isolate from the hips but, [edit- from day one as C.J. said above] the basic standing (zhan zhuang) posture addresses this by twisting the waist opposite direction of the hips and in circle walking when the inside foot advances ('against' / 'ni') the waist is kept twisted into the center and it's developing the waist by a constant wringing and twisting when then the outside foot steps ('moving with' /'shun').

The hips are still used in some manner depending on the strike or jin like if you do a strike to the right side using the waist and what would be called a 'ni force' (against the hips) then even at the end of the strike if neccesary it can in that instant 'change/transform' by adding in the turning of the hip to the right, the power that is still contained in the left shoulder of the "supporting hand", and actually in a throwing situation also adding in the turning of the head towards the right. The hips are still used but in more of a supporting manner of moving with the waist (shun) or moving in the opposite direction of the waist (ni) creating a stretch and release type of force, both with the goal of creating the space so that one could still 'change/adapt' into something new.

.

[Daniel]

Most people need a lot of training to become internally connected. Building that structure takes some time, and working with the kua in the yaokua pair starts with the crucial creation of a more square, stable structure in the student. Moving directly past that to work with the waist risks creating internal destabilizations in the links to the spine, legs, arms, and internal organs.

First song, then rooting, mind-work, and then kua-work creates a stable base, connecting up the system and starting to protect it. It´s also the foundation for getting even and smooth ningjingr and chanzijing through the body. Like Buddy´s comment about Marriage of Heaven and Earth, and like previous comments about chouzijing in one sense creating this stable structure to work chanzijing inside.

The kua-work also stabilizes the four points, among many other things, before moving on to the more complex, freer work with the yao. For my money, it´s also a safer and more stable way to build up the circle-walking before adding the waist. Again, it affects the spine differently.


D.

Sarcasm. Oh yeah, like that´ll work.

[Dmitri]

What? You just confused me. Are you saying that I said that? To of all people-you?? Where?

Hey Dan,

Confused indeed. You SHOULD know better, dammit, that "I, of all people" wouldn't ever... nor would you... etc., etc.

I thought highlighting "YOU" in my post would make it clear but I guess it didn't... You didn't say it about me (besides, I know that already all too well, as it is, anyway) -- you said it about YOU. I was referring to this post, where you answered to the question if there are any videos of yourself out there: "Nope! Never will be either. I suck, so I'll let others who are so sure of themselves step up and be the movie stars."
So I was just "responding" to that... ya know, highlighting your humility. (The check's in the mail, I hope? I mean, you don't expect me to say nice things about you for free, do you?! )

Anyway, hope it makes at least some sense now?

So if bagua swtichs, why would they do it? Does that make more sense?

I guess I shouldn't have lumped bagua into the same bucket with the rest of the CIMA in this respect, but that's why I stressed the "in my experience" part, i.e. there are many schools of thought out there, as some others noted afterwards. I was just saying that IME in most cases the transition from hips to waist is analogous to the (very natural) transition from "large to small", as a natural part of what I observed to be a more or less "standard" IMA training progression. And I do reserve the right to be wrong about this, dammit.

Best as always,
Dmitri

[Buddy]

Dan,
I didn't say that was the bagua approach, it is MY approach. Certainly I agree that originating movement from the waist is the goal. I had to figure it out. The neigong I learned taught it but it was never spelled out. When I was teaching I tried to spell it out.
Yizong was a whole different animal. I wish I could have started there. It's there from the beginning and I approached with a previous mind set.

[justincasea]

If memory serves me correctly Diepersloot wrote about the distinctions between the two as taught by Cai Song Feng (Mr. Choy) in "Warriors of Stillness, Vol. I".

What is the distinction according to DIepersloot? Thanks

[C.J.Wang]

The hips are still used in some manner depending on the strike or jin like if you do a strike to the right side using the waist and what would be called a 'ni force' (against the hips) then even at the end of the strike if neccesary it can in that instant 'change/transform' by adding in the turning of the hip to the right, the power that is still contained in the left shoulder of the "supporting hand", and actually in a throwing situation also adding in the turning of the head towards the right. The hips are still used but in more of a supporting manner of moving with the waist (shun) or moving in the opposite direction of the waist (ni) creating a stretch and release type of force, both with the goal of creating the space so that one could still 'change/adapt' into something new.

.

Shhhhhhhh.....................dude, you are giving away the secrets!

[GrahamB]

If the sheep farmers of Yorkshire had created a martial art you do know that we'd all be talking about wool weaving force now?

Anyway... bobbins to that! (See what I did there?)

Another thing to consider about chansi/chousi is that one is a metaphor (drawing silk) and the other one is a jin (reeling silk). That's quite a large difference right there.

Baaaaa

[Dmitri]

one is a metaphor (drawing silk) and the other one is a jin (reeling silk)

Isn't "jin" part of both terms, AND aren't they also both metaphors?

[GrahamB]

one is a metaphor (drawing silk) and the other one is a jin (reeling silk)

Isn't "jin" part of both terms, AND aren't they also both metaphors?

AFAIK, "drawing silk" only seems to exist as a line in the Tai Chi classic:

"Mobilize/move the Jin like drawing silk from a cocoon." from "exposition of the 13 postures" (or whatever it's called).

So, I don't think that makes it a Jin, as such. It's talking about the way you use Jin instead.

Silk Reeling Jin - Chan Si Jin, has always been about a type of force/Jin as far as I know. It's a particular thing it its own right.

Your milage may vary.

[Dmitri]

That makes sense; I was just going with "chousi jin" in the thread title...
Hmm, looking back at the first post, -- it does appear to be a construct created by Tom.

Oh well, I'm not big on theory anyway... I got no 'mileage' on this one at all, -- ya know, to vary.

[justincasea]

one is a metaphor (drawing silk) and the other one is a jin (reeling silk)

Isn't "jin" part of both terms, AND aren't they also both metaphors?

AFAIK, "drawing silk" only seems to exist as a line in the Tai Chi classic:

"Mobilize/move the Jin like drawing silk from a cocoon." from "exposition of the 13 postures" (or whatever it's called).

So, I don't think that makes it a Jin, as such. It's talking about the way you use Jin instead.

Silk Reeling Jin - Chan Si Jin, has always been about a type of force/Jin as far as I know. It's a particular thing it its own right.

Your milage may vary.

Yes. Well said. Chansijing as a type of force/jin is not exclusively of taiji. You can find it in Tongbei, shaolin, ... of course, Paocui Besides Chen taiji, other styles of taiji do not really make such a big deal out of it.

However, moving jin in taiji practice should FEEL like drawing silk, it is a metaphor of "NOT using brutal force that is from muscle contraction, or shaolin NEIGONG..." . In practice, if one is already in IMA body mechanics, he should automatically feel that in slow motion. For beginners, a good approach is to think all parts of your body is connected by silk, expecially your hands and feet, such that a feeling of elastic connection of silk coordinates all parts of a body in each movement. Experience is hard to share. I hope this does not sound authorative, expecially I being a beginner.

[Iskendar]

Seperating waist and hips, and moving from the waist are actually some of the important concepts that my Bagua teacher emphasizes from day one. It was never "hips first, waist later" for me. I learned it painfully by trying to twist from the waist as much as I could while he held on to my hips firmly to make sure that they didn't move an inch.

However, there are also Bagua people who don't move this way and are perfectly happy with utilizing waist and hips as a unit. (Most of them also practice other systems and simply use those body methods in their Bagua.)

Just a question, when you say twisting the waist without moving the hips, do the shoulders stay aligned with the hips, or do they follow the turning waist. In our taiji, breaking shoulder-hip alignment is a big no-no, and I seem to remember the same from Park Bok Nam's book on bagua. Now, we do work with a lot of hip movement, so maybe there's the difference, though I've been working on driving the hip movement by turning the waist (dantian rotation), which gives quite nice results. Allows for much smaller hip movement (to the point of nearly none) for the same amount of power. Still, when I do this, I don't break hip-shoulder alignment. Interesting stuff.

[GrahamB]

Re hip and shoulder: again, It may be just semantics but the 6 harmonies are 'harmonies' not 'alignments', hip and shoulder move in harmony with each other, rather than in alignment with each other. What that means I think ultimately comes down to a feeling. It's not as simple as it first appears, so it's not a one size fits all 'if you move your hip you move your shoulder in exactly the same way,' equally the shoulder doesn't need to be exactly over the top of the hip at all times.

I don't do bagua but it stand to reason that as you walk your hips are still moving even if they don't move relative to the waist.

Again, ymmv

[Iskendar]

Re hip and shoulder: again, It may be just semantics but the 6 harmonies are 'harmonies' not 'alignments', hip and shoulder move in harmony with each other, rather than in alignment with each other.

Ok, maybe I should clarify that question. For the bagua people, Bodywork, and anyone interested for that matter, if you turn the waist independently from the hips, do the shoulders follow the waist (resulting in them being at a significant angle to the hips), or do you keep them more or less inline, and use the waist turn to power the arm twists (which is what I'm working on these days)?