chousi jin and chansi jin

[middleway]

thanks Dan,

Thats a really useful post!

All the best

Chris

[AllanF]

Good post Dan much appreciated.

[Bodywork]

"You're welcome." I'd only add that talking about it, rarely ever matters, because it's never complete enough. On top of that too many guys writing stuff turn out to be useless, or next to useless, in person. I've been caught in that trap before. Reading something from someone; maybe quoting their teacher or something they've read. So you have to wonder; was it good information in the hands of a ner-do-well? Bad information? Or poorly understood. half-right/ half wrong information. I'm just not a big fan of getting much on the net
Who ever said "knowledge is power" should have qualified that….it doesn't really apply to physical skills.
No one ever "read" their way into having body skills good enough to win a gymnastic gold medal
Cheers
Dan

[I'lls cappuccino]

bodywork allways enjoy your posts.are there any vids on youtube showing the store and release ,and spiraling that you are talking about .

[Bodywork]

I would argue against the store and release idea as a driver in this case. It's is not the same as the dantian loading the mingmen, but rather case of a very rapid internal change in winding direction at the origination point which sort of catapults the limbs in an out and anyone and anything that happens to come in contact with them. So the store and release has more to do with a continuing energy that shifts (sort like a gear) into a different direction. When you "shift" back and forth it makes a sort of shear in the middle. It can happen in a split second and can drive a throw or a double palm strike, or "shaking-like" neutralization. in other words, the moment of change acts like shear in neutralizing in or out force or driving-out and pulling-in at the same time.

[bold added for emphasis]

Store-and-release via dantien loading mingmen can generate power but is significantly slower in real-time execution than the winding and spiraling change described above (that's my experience, judged from being on the receiving end).

Hi Tom
Yup I agree. There are all sorts of store and release ideas in the body, but once people get out of play time and get into more stressful venues and try some of those ideas with decent fighters they might arrive at the same conclusions you did. You might as well put a stamp on it, send it snail mail, and call and tell the recipient to wait for it's imminent arrival.
I think too many people dismiss good grapplers and what they can feel and sense from years of both feeling weightshifts and set-ups and creating them in others and reading the feedback, and just what sort of skill that burns into them! That is in being sensitive enough to be good "listeners" for all manner of feeback; external, AND internal mechanics as well.

For my money, when you get used to that sort of feedback it changes what you are willing to hone and focus on with internal mechanics in your own game and what you might choose to toss. At our place we work on things that transcend venues and remain cogent all the time regardless of venue or techniques being applied or tried on you. Once we get into listening skills and movement I go for more realistic stresses and freedom of movement as the body methos remains present, and constant thoughout all movement.
Cheers
Dan

[Bodywork]

bodywork allways enjoy your posts.are there any vids on youtube showing the store and release ,and spiraling that you are talking about .

Nope! Never will be either. I suck, so I'll let others who are so sure of themselves step up and be the movie stars. And in fairness to them-I'm not having to"represent" a style or sell anything.
I just did a big seminar, and every minute of it I wanted to trade places with one of the guys who came and then try to kick my own ass for having the audacity to be up there.
i'm not a good "it" guy. Hell, I even eloped rather than be that guy for the day.

[I'lls cappuccino]

fair enuff. is there any other teachers on the old youtube demoing somthing along the lines of what your talking about?

[Buddy]

I like what Dan has wrote... a lot. But Dan, my experience (and you might be a better teacher of beginners than me, I don't teach anymore), but I find it very difficult to teach beginners whole body power movement originated in the waist. They tend to segment the body based on cultural conditioning.
So I used to teach "regular" martial training whereby they first learn how to unite the body movement based on turning the body from the hips (which you seem to think is wrong? I view it as a level) Then once they have an understanding of how the whole CAN move together, show them how it needs to be further refined so that the waist (tantien? I don't care about these terms) can move the whole body power as I have previously described.
I have two different approaches: BKF's neigong where I learned whatever it is I know, and
Luo's approach that I define as a simultaneous and progressive system of Choreography, Structure, Continuity, and Intention.

I won't be back to see your response immediately but look forward to reading it. Perhaps my Senior, Marcus will expand on the Gao approach, I hope so.

Cheers, Buddy

[Bodywork]

I like what Dan has wrote... a lot. But Dan, my experience (and you might be a better teacher of beginners than me, I don't teach anymore), but I find it very difficult to teach beginners whole body power movement originated in the waist. They tend to segment the body based on cultural conditioning.
So I used to teach "regular" martial training whereby they first learn how to unite the body movement based on turning the body from the hips (which you seem to think is wrong? I view it as a level) Then once they have an understanding of how the whole CAN move together, show them how it needs to be further refined so that the waist (tantien? I don't care about these terms) can move the whole body power as I have previously described.
I have two different approaches: BKF's neigong where I learned whatever it is I know, and
Luo's approach that I define as a simultaneous and progressive system of Choreography, Structure, Continuity, and Intention.

I won't be back to see your response immediately but look forward to reading it. Perhaps my Senior, Marcus will expand on the Gao approach, I hope so.

Cheers, Buddy

Hello Buddy
I hope all is well, with you.
I can't speak about what others do. For that matter, some people (external and internal alike) choose to move from the hips, tuck the sacrum, do the back load fajin, etc etc. Everyone does what they will. You said you have students switch to drawing with the waist -later in their training-after teaching them to move from the hips? I assume because you have found the waist movement superior in your goals? Another Bagua practitioner here said the same thing "hips first then waist." We do it from the beginning. In a practical sense, with the weapons work we do- it is a prerequisite. There's no other way to move with the weapons. The weapons work burns it in-in long drills, so does our taijutsu (body method). We use a step be step process that works well for me that is very hands-on to identify paths in the body and get them to feel it.
You stopped teaching?
Lately, there are days when i want to lock my door again and just dissapear.
Cheers
Dan

[Brinkman]

Buddy,,there doesn’t seem to be a solid consensus on what the difference between these two terms refer, chousijin, chansijin. Some say it is an overlapping set of opposing and or complimentary planes of spiral motion….. I think in regard to direction however, the terms “suen”(to go with) and “ni” (to go against) are usually used to denote those particular variations…within a reeling silk format. I would argue that Reeling silk and Pulling silk are not meant to simply denote a yin / yang division of coordinating or opposing spirals.

Yi ru chou si or “awareness is like drawing silk”… in theory, refers to the quality of unbroken awareness which precedes the cultivation of reeling silk, whereas “chansi” (reeling silk) refers particularly to the physical end of the practice.

So called, “reeling silk” is a three part, 1.rise 2.fall 3.overturn or 1.rise 2.fall 3.drill 4.overturn procedure. Drawing silk is the precursor for the development of such a physical wave form, it thus focuses upon direct sensitivity to the internal sensation of opening and closing (kai he). Some have suggested that such opening and closing originates as the spinal fluid fluxes between the cranium and the sacrum. As the
cranium expands the sacrum contracts and vice versa, sending the spinal fluid from one end to the other. I tend to agree with that.

At any rate, from this two dimensional opening and closing that is revealed in drawing silk …reeling silk evolves all on its own..Open and close is just another way of talking about rise and fall. First you have to become sensitive to these two internal movements such that the external physical body may begin to take shape around the internal opening and closing. As one focuses upon the division of these opening and closing movements ..then the overturn quality as well as drilling becomes evident and the body may follow and enhance its development..

This is definitely not exclusive to Gao style bagua but part of an internal cultivation tradition under which many of these so called internal arts, fall under the umbrella of.

Marcus

[Bodywork]

Buddy
I was interested to hear your reply?
Dan

[Daniel]

Very good post, Brinkman. Thank you.


D.

Sarcasm. Oh yeah, like that´ll work.

[Buddy]

Sorry Dan,
Yes stopped teaching until I can get my physical problems ironed out. My problem was going from one method to another. What Marcus said makes sense to me, particularly in that he has experience in the other method (other than Gao).
Sorry, I'm not here often but I'll try to follow a couple people here in future.

Cheers,

Buddy
(Thanks Marcus!)

[Dmitri]

You said you have students switch to drawing with the waist -later in their training-after teaching them to move from the hips? I assume because you have found the waist movement superior in your goals? Another Bagua practitioner here said the same thing "hips first then waist."

I think it's a more or less a "standard" progression (at least speaking from TJQ perspective and according to my meager knowledge on the matter), since hip-driven movement is probably a bit easier to make the body understand for a beginner. Later it seems to "shrink" and coagulate into a smaller movement where you don't have to go from hips. The "large-to-small" training progression seems to be the norm, at least in TJQ. Personally for me/IME, the hip remained a "habit" of mine to a degree when "practicing" things, but when going full-speed it seems to not be the driving force. (I'd have to video myself and look, to be able to tell that for sure... but at least it feels that way, FWIW.)
E.g. one of the "side-effect abilities" I noticed got developed over time is, for lack of a better term, "heavy hands", i.e. if you look at the opening movement of any tai chi form, hands going up (folding at the elbow) and then unfolding (palms going out/down), there is no hip involvement whatsoever, and yet I seem to be able to generate a fair amount of short power during that 'unfolding'... A quick self-observation/analysis seems to suggest it is done by contraction/twisting in the torso so the arms act more like whips rather than rely on triceps to provide the acceleration.
Anyway, that's a long-winded version of replying to your assumption/question to Buddy, "because you have found the waist movement superior in your goals" -- I don't know anything about Buddy's training but in my case, that switch wasn't a conscious one but a natural progression as the movement became smaller and the mind learned to move things inside the body better.

(For what very little that's worth... You know man, when you say that YOU suck, it makes me feel like I should just stop posting on the main forum and switch exclusively to the fun stuff in BTDT and OTT forums. )

[Bodywork]

You said you have students switch to drawing with the waist -later in their training-after teaching them to move from the hips? I assume because you have found the waist movement superior in your goals? Another Bagua practitioner here said the same thing "hips first then waist."

(For what very little that's worth... You know man, when you say that YOU suck, it makes me feel like I should just stop posting on the main forum and switch exclusively to the fun stuff in BTDT and OTT forums. )

What? You just confused me. Are you saying that I said that? To of all people-you??
Where? I personally know some veeery capable people (as I mentioned both internal and external) who move from the hips. That's why I said there are people who do that and tuck the sacrum, do that back load fa jing, one and on. There are many different approaches to power. And that is why I said to Buddy when he asked me "That I can't speak to other peoples methods (IOW, there are too many of them) and I only wanted to address my own and so I asked buddy about his findings.

For our purposes (weapons) there really isn't another way to do the movements. I was very interested in why that Bagua approach (Buddy is the second guy to mention it) changes later from hips to waist. Apparently they agreed it was harder to train, so they start with the hips first, before changing to waist. I was more interested in the "why?" They must find it supperior for their own goals, okay. Why?Example" I gave rational reasons on Brady's thread as to "why" we move that way with weapons. So if bagua swtichs, why would they do it?
Does that make more sense?
Cheers
Dan