keepin it real?

[Franklin]

combat effectiveness.... how do we know we are keeping it real?

how do we know we can fight effectively?


just would like to hear people's opinions

what types of tests, training, etc do you do?

open hand, weapons, survival tactics?

is the ring good enough? does it need to be taken to a more realistic level?


the kind of training we used to do in karate back in the day was more to test your spirit... stuff like at the end of a belt test after working out for hours on end then you would have to spar one of the senior black belts who would then proceed to give you a beating to see if you would keep getting up or would you give up...
the last test i took at my karate school was like that- they finally stopped the test and made me clean up my blood that was all over the school....

i think stuff like this would be called abusive now a days lol

most of my students now are "for health only" so stuff like this is not really an issue for them

and for me personally fighting has become a little less important
more important to live well.....
and stuff like TCM and Qi Gong and Meditation have become more interesting to me over the years...

franklin

[Juan]

Hey Franklin,

Like I said, I really have no issue with people using MA for health and or fitness. That is totally up to them and if they are happy doing that, then more power to them. I am learning MA for both health/fitness and fighting. The way I test myself MA wise is stepping into the ring and doing hard sparring in the gym. Is that enough for true self-defense? I don't know. But a least I am learning timing in fights and applying my stuff. I'm also learning to take a punch and keep going. I also occasionally meet with Sifu Mark Cheng to work on chinna and grappling in Taiji and I spar and do push hands drills with my regular Taiji teacher Sifu Krubiner. Is this all enough to survive in the streets? Maybe, maybe not.

*Also, Re: the Karate test: Man, that is some hard shit. Props for going through that. I don't know that I could have done it.

[dragontigerpalm]

the kind of training we used to do in karate back in the day was more to test your spirit... stuff like at the end of a belt test after working out for hours on end then you would have to spar one of the senior black belts who would then proceed to give you a beating to see if you would keep getting up or would you give up...
the last test i took at my karate school was like that- they finally stopped the test and made me clean up my blood that was all over the school....

i think stuff like this would be called abusive now a days lol



franklin

This is a good post and a very good point. Once one has experienced the test of spirit or what was called intestinal fortitude when I was a kid and has learned that he can take a beating and as importantly learned that he can overcome what for most people is a natural reluctance to deliver punishment, whether it be from martial arts training, contact sports, growing up fighting etc, then the further pursuit of fight training is more for refining skills, to be more efficient, have better control etc. Without that test of spirit and the self-knowledge gained from it then IMO all the martial arts training in a real fight is at best a question mark and at worst a recipe for disaster.

[H2O]

If you want to test 'combat efficiency', you need to fight with a variety of people from other systems. If you go out there and fight Boxers, Judoka, Muay Thai, BJJ, Xing Yi, Tai Ji, Karate, etc., and you win more than you lose, you're doing OK.

As far as venue, most of the time we would just fight at each other's gym after class. You meet someone who does a different MA, (mebbe on this website), stop by and train a class with the other guy, fight a couple rounds after class, then go have a beer.

This is how I got started in MMA. I stopped by the local BJJ gym, and got paired up with some skinny Mexican named Miguel Torres. He ended up training me for 2 1/2 years and is WEC Champ. He's fighting August 9 on vs, be sure to check him out. Anyway, enough shameless plugging. The point is you can meet some good people and find good training this way. If someone 'Wows' you, stop and hang around for a while. You just might learn something.

I don't think you need to fight in the ring. It takes a helluva commitment to train for a fight, and it's more than most are willing to commit. I don't like the idea of grown men fighting in parks or on playgrounds, really anywhere out in public either. It's dangerous and I see it as childish.

Just make sure you have good manners, and can have a beer with the guy after he busted your nose.

[Juan]

If you want to test 'combat efficiency', you need to fight with a variety of people from other systems. If you go out there and fight Boxers, Judoka, Muay Thai, BJJ, Xing Yi, Tai Ji, Karate, etc., and you win more than you lose, you're doing OK.

As far as venue, most of the time we would just fight at each other's gym after class. You meet someone who does a different MA, (mebbe on this website), stop by and train a class with the other guy, fight a couple rounds after class, then go have a beer.

This is how I got started in MMA. I stopped by the local BJJ gym, and got paired up with some skinny Mexican named Miguel Torres. He ended up training me for 2 1/2 years and is WEC Champ. He's fighting August 9 on vs, be sure to check him out. Anyway, enough shameless plugging. The point is you can meet some good people and find good training this way. If someone 'Wows' you, stop and hang around for a while. You just might learn something.

I don't think you need to fight in the ring. It takes a helluva commitment to train for a fight, and it's more than most are willing to commit. I don't like the idea of grown men fighting in parks or on playgrounds, really anywhere out in public either. It's dangerous and I see it as childish.

Just make sure you have good manners, and can have a beer with the guy after he busted your nose.

Damn dude, you trained with Miguel Torres?!?! That's pretty freaking awesome. He is a hell of a BJJ player. I always enjoy watching his fights.

[H2O]

Yeah, I've been extremely lucky in finding good teachers. The fight this Sunday should be good, make sure to check it out. You can find more info here http://www.wec.tv/

[Franklin]

*Also, Re: the Karate test: Man, that is some hard shit.

my teacher at that time was a product of the karate of the 70's and 80's
my understanding was that i had it easy...

he also told me that what really increased his own skill level was when he broke away from his own teacher and opened up his own school... (don't know the date but i would guess in the earlier 80's)
he said he trained with the idea that at any time there might be 3-4 guys from his old school coming through the door to "shut him down"...
(a good way to increase skill- but not a healthy way to live if you ask me)


so the question is how to judge if our training is making us good at combat...
of course to get better we would need to fight a variety of opponents

but the thing about fighting is someone will always be winning and someone will always be loosing
and if you loose today does that mean that your training was ineffective, i don't think so- because we are training for something that can not really be quantifiable, if it was then the top ranked fighter should never be beaten right?- but that is not the case...

i think the same goes for the "health" aspect
even the most healthy guy is going to die- doesn't mean that his training was ineffective....


and good training partners are really hard to find- in my experience the best way to increase skill is to have people to work with without ego and actually work on stuff.... not posturing or any other of that stupid stuff but doing the work...

franklin

[Chris McKinley]

Franklin,

I agree that it's all really a game of playing the percentages. There's no such thing as undefeatable....never has been in human history. On one level, I don't believe it's possible to know for sure if your training is effective for real combat without having experienced real combat, and sometimes more than once. Certain contexts get closer than others to the real thing, but even the least restrictive sport combat arena is a far cry from the real deal. That doesn't mean you have to remain completely in the dark about your functionality. Common sense would tell us that if you are winning more fights than you are losing in minimally restrictive full-contact sport fights, you would probably be safe in assuming that something effective is soaking in and further, that you likely have more functional ability than a guy who's never fought before and only practices push hands and forms. Not that that's the only way to tell, but I mention it just to make a clear point.

I'd prefer that as many people as possible never really end up knowing for sure because they never face a real assault of that nature, but just do the best they can, practice in as realistic a way as they know how, and just hope for the best. Why? Because that would mean that their lives are untouched by that level of violence, and the more people for whom that is true, the better.

[oldtyger]

The question of combat effectiveness is something that taijiquan players, like myself, often ask. I go outside of my taijiquan to train this because basic skills like effective striking, joint locks, grappling, etc just are not emphasized by most taijiquan teachers. I was taught basic fajing and I've developed on my own from the foundation. I've taught myself how to connect into my kicks( which come from my original art of tang soo do mainly but influenced by bagua, muay thai--love those round kicks, taekwondo--which has quicker delivery than TSD, and capoeira). Grappling skills from BJJ--I need to train more of this though. Some self-defense from krav maga, weapons is Filipino arts. Of course everything is taijiquan-flavored. Eventually I hope to learn the official san shou techniques in my lineage of taijiquan( a set of striking applications which resemble xingyi strikes) to add to the repertoire. I think there has to be a physical conditioning aspect as well--something seriously lacking in most martial arts in general, and certainly from most taijiquan schools.

I don't think there are very many arts that encompass all you may need to survive a fight so it's good to have a broad base of skills. I'm no expert in any of these arts although I'm fairly proficient in my internal skills and striking. It's also important to practice all your skills as much as possible--and that's something I don't get enough of. Hard to find a good training partner, someone with the skills that match up well and has similar interests. I've taught a few friends a bit of hand/leg strikes in a taijiquan context and it was something no one had shown them--although it's actually quite basic.

I don't think you need to get beaten to a pulp to test your survivability--although that certainly qualifies. Many ways to simulate different environments and test different aspects. In krav maga many drills designed to test you, like going all out in 30 seconds on multiple bags for strength, speed, and cardiovascular endurance; or the zombie drill which tests adaptability and movement skills in a non-fighting way. In one FMA drill with padded sticks( that still hurt), you try to hit your partner's hand more than he hits yours. Best tests are the closest to actual fighting and might need a set of full contact gear--which I don't have yet-- to go that route.

Rich

[RobP2]

The question for me in real life situations is not so much win or lose but to survive it. In some cases I've "won" all round - acheived my objective without getting hurt, in others I've had to lose face in order to avoid trouble (in the sense of not escalating a situation into a place I didn't want to go)

Most of the arts I've experienced seem based on a concept of dueling with very little or no time given to anything involving how you got there. So there you have two dangers - a rush into a fight in order to "show your stuff" and/or getting into situations for which you are psychologically unprepared (see the links of "masters" fighting that Graham posted recently)

Survivability is down to more than how hard you can punch or how many locks you know. It is about how you react under pressure - all types of pressure, not just a heavy sparring session. If you don't have some form of procedure or operating system for that then you might be in for a shock when it goes all "playground".

cheers
Rob

[BillyK]

my method is breaking stuff and getting into fights. if you do this, you have to be open-minded enough to completely throw your old training out of the window and try something new if you old training doesn't give you the results you want.

[Chris McKinley]

Um, yeah.....okay.

[Darth Rock&Roll]

I have a guy named kato who I live with. He's sort of my butler. We have a deal that he shall attack me unawares and I shall defend myself.
Oh, the fun we have.



p.s spar regularly and really test your shit against different people,no compliance, full resistance.
You don't have to throw bombs, but you can reliably test yourself with someone coming at you trying to hit you, kick you, grab you, touch you with a knife device, etc etc.

Explore it!

If you get a bleeding nose, cry to your fucking mommy about it though ok?

[Chris McKinley]

Wow, Darth....it's nice to have company in the dinosaur pen.

[Ralteria]

I have a guy named kato who I live with. He's sort of my butler. We have a deal that he shall attack me unawares and I shall defend myself.

Funny that you mention that. I used to live with some really good friends of mine who were all martial artists. We actually did just that, only we called them "ninja attacks." Ahhh...good times.