expert, then push hands vs. push hands, then expert.

[daniel pfister]

1. one learns push hands before learning sparring, etc. - if one doesn't keep going, there is the "watered down" danger.
2. one already knows some striking, locking, throwing, then learns push hands as a sort of "yin" refinement/polishing.

Either one is fine. IMO push hands is a training tool to develop certain taiji skills. If you are already sparring then the skills you learn from PH will gradually be added to your sparring. If you have not started sparring before learning PH, then you'll bring some of those skills to the table when you do.

The question might be whether or not you view PH as a valuable practice in itself for refinement of certain skills or as merely a step toward "real" taiji fighting only to be discarded once a certain level is achieved. I take the former view.

[Ralteria]

The question might be whether or not you view PH as a valuable practice in itself for refinement of certain skills or as merely a step toward "real" taiji fighting only to be discarded once a certain level is achieved. I take the former view.

Aside from the "discarded" portion of your statement, can you clarify the difference between the two opposing examples you gave? They seem really close in interpretation.

[daniel pfister]

The question might be whether or not you view PH as a valuable practice in itself for refinement of certain skills or as merely a step toward "real" taiji fighting only to be discarded once a certain level is achieved. I take the former view.

Aside from the "discarded" portion of your statement, can you clarify the difference between the two opposing examples you gave? They seem really close in interpretation.

I meant whether or not you value PH independent of sparring practice.

[bruce]

I never learned any specific "techniques" like that in taijiquan...

Those are "principles" and not "techniques". For example, when your opponent give you a head lock, you use 吸 Xi (leg sticky) to glue yourself on your opponent and become part of his body so he cannot throw you. In order to train that "head lock" defense, you have to allow your opponent to give you a "head lock". But the general PH rules just don't allow "head lock" and that's my main point - if you have too many rules in PH, you will miss the opportunity to train many valuable skills.

this is why in my opinion most people should change their definition of what push hands is. there are times where it is good to isolate things like no stepping etc but you may want to train freely more often than than you restrict yourself.

"push hand rules" should allow for any thing that may happen in a fight.

[daniel pfister]

"push hand rules" should allow for any thing that may happen in a fight.

I agree, I think it only ceases to be push hands when the two players stop trying use taiji principles of root, softness, etc, not when they use certain techniques. Anything beyond that would be considered san shou in my view.

[Doc Stier]

"push hand rules" should allow for any thing that may happen in a fight.

I agree, I think it only ceases to be push hands when the two players stop trying use taiji principles of root, softness, etc, not when they use certain techniques. Anything beyond that would be considered san shou in my view.

Well once again, there is Competitive Tournament Push Hands and Traditional Tui-Shou. Although both entities are associated with the label 'push hands', they are not and should not be considered the same thing, IMO.

Competitive tournament rules here in the USA usually prohibit anything other than open hand pushing and pulling techniques, and is thus quite limited in its technical scope of possible applications. Closed hand grabbing, foot tripping, leg sweeping, throwing techniques, and all open hand strikes or closed fist punches are strictly prohibited. The explicitly stated goal of tournament competition matches is to imbalance and/or uproot the opponent, not to injure him, disable him, or to take him down to the ground.

These parameters are generally in accordance with the training methods of most traditional styles of Tai-Chi Chuan, in which Tui-Shou is meant to develop more sensitive physical 'feeling' and 'listening' skills which enhance automatic reactions and spontaneous responses, along with the ability to maintain control of your own center and root, while simultaneously locating and disrupting the opponent's center and root. These two person drills are mostly practiced from a fixed position initially, but are later practiced with moving steps as well after sufficient stationary skills are acquired.

When striking and throwing techniques and more active footwork are added to the mix, the successive stages of engagement are then specifically labeled as Ta-Lu, San-Shou, and Lei-Tai respectively, but are no longer referred to solely as Tui-Shou or Push Hands. In each stage of training and practice, you are expected to incorporate correct principles of movement and to maintain proper structural alignment throughout.

As such, the progressive development of effective combative skills is gradually manifested in turn from the simple to the complex until all skills can be realistically applied in unified harmony with one another as a soft style gung-fu.

[Chris McKinley]

Doc,

I'm going to use your post here as a reference for guys who still don't know what push hands is, what it includes, how it's defined, or whether it's fully sufficient training in and of itself. Thanks for the very clear explanation and definition of the subject.

[Doc Stier]

Doc,

I'm going to use your post here as a reference for guys who still don't know what push hands is, what it includes, how it's defined, or whether it's fully sufficient training in and of itself. Thanks for the very clear explanation and definition of the subject.

Thanks, Chris. My pleasure.

Keep up your great on target posts. Tell it, man, tell it!

[oldtyger]

IMO push hands is not fighting but does teach the primary aspects of taijiquan skills: listening, sticking, following, neutralizing, peng jing, rooting. I have done a little BJJ and you don't get any of these skills to the same degree as you do in taijiquan. Listening and following are probably the closest skills you can get in grappling arts and understanding where your center is--although is not the same as rooting in IMA.

I think one problem of any art is you pretty much always spar/partner with someone in the same art so you limit yourself to defense against a certain style's attacks. Often the "attacks" are pre-determined exercises and not very realistic--and often not that effective if you look at other arts with more emphasis on these types of attacks.

As John Wang pointed out earlier, there really are no sweeps or defenses against these or throws--at least not extensively--in general in traditional push hands. This is obviously a limitation but one that can be overcome by training specifically against these.

To progress in taijiquan fighting skills, you do have to go beyond the tui shou. San shou skills exist in some lineages but I am only familiar with Wu style and these also appear to be somewhat limited in scope. If you develop your basic skills high enough, you can easily adapt these to other techniques e.g. rooting, peng jing to Muay Thai round kick or rooting, peng jing, listening/sticking to counter takedown into your own take down. You do have to practice and train specifically to develop an arsenal of techniques and knowledge in other arts is probably required to understand effective attacks and defenses against these. Pretty hard to counter an arm bar from a side mount if you have never experienced it.

Rich

[johnwang]

PH training (done properly) develops "takedown defense" abilities

To progress in taijiquan fighting skills, you do have to go beyond the tui shou.

If you do want to develop some take down defense abilities such as 吸 Xi (leg sticky), you will need your opponent to throw you.

http://johnswang.com/sc1.wmv

[humbleboxer]

this is one of the best posts on push hands/joined hands I have read so far. it illustrates that many types of training are to develop certain skills that add to your art as a whole. changing the "rules" will change the type of skills you develop. all training has some sort of limitation. it is part of the learning process to develop an understanding as to what you are doing and why you are doing it. Tai Chi Chuan has many different types of training that are not directly geared for combat, but in the "grand" picture will help your fighting skill. "ultimately", once you can stick to principle and stop worrying about style things are more likely to be similar than different.