where one art begins and another one ends

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

where one art begins and another one ends

Postby JuanM on Sun Jun 08, 2008 9:47 pm

The benefits of cross training are awesome in getting to understand different arts. This week I had two great experiences. First off, in Taiji class we were doing some sensitivity/coiling excercises that helped me understand and figure a few things out about the Muay Thai clinch. The excercises were particularly helpful in feeling my opponent when swimming for position.

Second of all in Muay Thai class whe were doing some kick defense excercises which called for us to yield and absorb our opponent's front push kick. Very Taiji-like.

Just thought I'd share.
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Re: where one art begins and another one ends

Postby GrahamB on Mon Jun 09, 2008 2:37 am

I like what Tim Cartmell said - something like 'style founders cross train, style tranmitters don't'
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Re: where one art begins and another one ends

Postby Royal Dragon on Mon Jun 09, 2008 5:21 am

Did the style founders even consider what they do a style? Or were they just concerned with the nuts and bolts of things? Maybe the "Style" just developed on it's own, unintentionally, and it is the STUDENTS who later tried to preserve the methods of thier teachers that also solidified it into a style by also capturing thier masters flavor and style of execution?
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Re: where one art begins and another one ends

Postby Aged Tiger on Mon Jun 09, 2008 6:23 am

Royal Dragon wrote:Did the style founders even consider what they do a style? Or were they just concerned with the nuts and bolts of things? Maybe the "Style" just developed on it's own, unintentionally, and it is the STUDENTS who later tried to preserve the methods of their teachers that also solidified it into a style by also capturing their masters flavor and style of execution?


Wouldn't that be like apples of different variety? I mean, it doesn't matter if the main teacher or his student "founded" the style would it? The cross-training is still there.

I read somewhere a long time ago, don't remember where, than Sun LuTang didn't really intend to create a new "style" for a long time, it just happened. Being encouraged by students, etc.
It may have been his daughter talking about him in the 80s...... not sure.

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Re: where one art begins and another one ends

Postby Interloper on Mon Jun 09, 2008 7:34 am

GrahamB wrote:I like what Tim Cartmell said - something like 'style founders cross train, style tranmitters don't'


Aces.
I'd venture to say that all the visionaries and founders were and are "mixed-martial-arts" practitioners. Creativity doesn't happen in a vacuum; it requires exposure to a broad and varied palette of ideas, from which the creative person synthesizes something new. The impetus is usually his own personal needs, necessity being the mother of invention and all that. If you are not satisfied with any one existing system, you extract the best of what you experience from "everything" and tailor it to your physical, mental and environmental circumstances.

"Style transmitters" seem to comprise the majority of practitioners, that being the average martial arts Joe. No shame in it, it's just limiting to both the individual and the potential of MAs. But if they're content with it, so be it. Visionaries are ceaslessly restless and "hungry."
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Re: where one art begins and another one ends

Postby Darthwing Teorist on Mon Jun 09, 2008 8:11 am

Royal Dragon wrote:Did the style founders even consider what they do a style? Or were they just concerned with the nuts and bolts of things? Maybe the "Style" just developed on it's own, unintentionally, and it is the STUDENTS who later tried to preserve the methods of thier teachers that also solidified it into a style by also capturing thier masters flavor and style of execution?


I agree with this. Looking at my teachers, who all cross-trained, they made their personal "style" out of what works. They look at arts and see the similitudes and differences. After all, everything is related to the human body and while there are many ways to train the same thing, the fundamental principles are all the same.

But they also teach each system in their curriculum separetly. Sometimes understanding from one art made them change certain things in another but overall the systems taught are separate entities even if a drill from one art may feed into one from another art.
И ам тхе террор тхат флапс ин тхе нигхт! И ам тхе црамп тхат руинс ёур форм! И ам... ДАРКWИНГ ДУЦК!
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Re: where one art begins and another one ends

Postby C.J.Wang on Mon Jun 09, 2008 8:11 am

I wonder how many martial artists today dare to call themselves "style transmitters."

Being a transmitter for a particular style means that you must dedicate years of training to understand every single aespect of the system and be able to demonstrate, explain, and teach it to future generations.

Seeing how the majority of martial artists today in America are dabblers with jobs, families, and kids who train 2,3 times a week in the dojo at a strip mall, I'd say that less than 1% deserves to be called style transmitters.

As far as cross-training, if you have an excellent teacher to lead you or are gifted enough yourself to be able to see through the stylistic boundaries of outward movements and focus on understanding the essence/internal mechanics of various systems, it'd be tremedously beneficial.
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Re: where one art begins and another one ends

Postby Ron Panunto on Mon Jun 09, 2008 9:44 am

C.J.Wang wrote:I wonder how many martial artists today dare to call themselves "style transmitters."


Well I would think that those practitioners with heavy ties to authentic lineages are "style transmitters," like Chen Xiaowong, Chen Zhenglie, Yang Zhendou, Yang Jun, etc. So maybe the question is who are more proficient martial artists? Transmitters or cross trainers?
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Re: where one art begins and another one ends

Postby Darthwing Teorist on Mon Jun 09, 2008 10:35 am

Ron Panunto wrote:
C.J.Wang wrote:I wonder how many martial artists today dare to call themselves "style transmitters."


Well I would think that those practitioners with heavy ties to authentic lineages are "style transmitters," like Chen Xiaowong, Chen Zhenglie, Yang Zhendou, Yang Jun, etc. So maybe the question is who are more proficient martial artists? Transmitters or cross trainers?



It's up to the individual. But, in general style founders are the ones that stand out the most. Not all cross-trainers are style founders though.
И ам тхе террор тхат флапс ин тхе нигхт! И ам тхе црамп тхат руинс ёур форм! И ам... ДАРКWИНГ ДУЦК!
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Re: where one art begins and another one ends

Postby TaoJoannes on Mon Jun 09, 2008 10:39 am

There's only a 5% difference between human and chimp DNA.

Martial Arts styles differ mainly in emphasis.
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Re: where one art begins and another one ends

Postby Interloper on Mon Jun 09, 2008 1:02 pm

TJ,

I agree with the concept of emphasis -- say, throws and grappling vs. punching/kicking, etc. But, I'd take it a step further and say that once you have the core internal body skills, "style" becomes the outward, artistic expression of it -- as varied as the creative individuals who practice it.
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Re: where one art begins and another one ends

Postby Darthwing Teorist on Mon Jun 09, 2008 1:38 pm

Interloper wrote:TJ,

I agree with the concept of emphasis -- say, throws and grappling vs. punching/kicking, etc. But, I'd take it a step further and say that once you have the core internal body skills, "style" becomes the outward, artistic expression of it -- as varied as the creative individuals who practice it.


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И ам тхе террор тхат флапс ин тхе нигхт! И ам тхе црамп тхат руинс ёур форм! И ам... ДАРКWИНГ ДУЦК!
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Re: where one art begins and another one ends

Postby qiphlow on Mon Jun 09, 2008 7:42 pm

the longer i spend with practitioners of various internal arts, the more i realize that, at least with the "big 3," there isn't a whole lot of difference at all. sure, the techniques might have different names, but essentially they're the same.
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Re: where one art begins and another one ends

Postby Interloper on Mon Jun 09, 2008 7:55 pm

Qiph,
I wouldn't look at the techniques, but at the internal core body skills that power them. THAT'S the crux of what's "essentially the same," and is what technique --- any technique --- flows from at the whim of the practitioner.
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Re: where one art begins and another one ends

Postby qiphlow on Tue Jun 10, 2008 6:28 am

ah yes--that too!



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