Best internal guys alive today?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Best internal guys alive today?

Postby Interloper on Sun Oct 02, 2016 6:13 am

Niall Keane wrote:Ah yes... the argument gets piss poor entirely...

So if you can't fight with your martial art thats ok, you can still be the best internal martial artist because.... guns!

As for the rest of ye .... with the reduction of martial art to "primitative male ritual", maybe your martial dabbling isn't up to much and never touches the artful? Perhaps consider that you now exhibit primitive herd mentality?


I personally believe that you should be able to use your skills effectively for self-defense, to save your life and others' lives. I enjoy watching competitive fighters, but I don't give a rat's rump whether I can play in the competition ring with it. From an academic standpoint, I like to see someone who has complete command over internal body method -- being able to create and maintain total awareness and a unified structure, 6-directional energy, and be able to manipulate and apply it in a number of ways to achieve specific effects on a non-compliant, resisting, aggressive attacker.

From a practical standpoint, I want to be able to use it combatively to defend myself. That's how I train, under increasing pressure and duress. I also train traditionally, for the beauty of the skills and the forms themselves. There should be a balance of both in a martial art. This is not knocking competitive fighters; that's a whole other thing, and it's fine in its own right. But the ring isn't real life, either. IMO it is not legitimate to judge "who is the best internal guy" simply by how he can apply his skills in the competition ring.

And who said that martial are a primitive male ritual? They are symbolic derivatives of a very primal (not the same meaning as "primitive") human drive, expressed in male territorial displays and dominance-hierarchy ritual in virtually all social animal species. This is objective. Don't take it personally. ;) All of us are acting on drives that are wired into us by millions of years of living on Planet Earth.
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Re: Best internal guys alive today?

Postby Interloper on Sun Oct 02, 2016 6:14 am

Steve, some of us like to see internet forums as places for rational discussion. But those of us who do are largely delusional or at least hopelessly optimistic. :D
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Re: Best internal guys alive today?

Postby D_Glenn on Sun Oct 02, 2016 6:16 am

Back in 2009 the question was asked: "Best internal guys alive today?"

And here's the answers, in the order they were mentioned:

mikhail ryabko
sam chin
serge augier
akuzawa minoru
vladamir vasiliev
yap cheng hai
vincent chu
su dong chen
paul whitrod
luo de xiu
william cc chen
peter ralston
chen yu
ma jiang bao
yun yin sen (lhbf)
xu ai zhai
gin soon
ken fish
xie bingcan
yo momma
ma chuanxu
qian zhaohong
yang hai
lin fuzhu
shan changwen
ck chu
mike patterson
master li
liu rui (zhaobao taiji)
li zhanhua (tongbeiquan)
he jinbao
chin lik keong and jimmy heow
yang guo tai
yuan shao liang
tim cartmell
dan docherty
li yen hoa student of chiu chuk kai
george xu
william de thours
marcus brinkman
lin guozheng
bill tucker
george wood
zhang yun
strider clark
henry wang
chu anchung
wai lun choi
li tailiang
yang fansheng
yao pei jing
albert (zheng) liu
malak rida
doc stier
fong ha
guo shilei
zhou jingxuan
zhang suisheng
denis sue-tin
dan harden
sam masich
chen zhonghua
lu sheng li
h won gim

Then, after necrothreading to 2016, Niall read the thread and wrote that all of the above are only doing "Boxercise or performance art".

Now I'm sure that there are a few guys up on that list who are exactly that, I wouldn't know, I've only met four of them and they are all proficient fighters and internal martial artists and teach arts that are nowhere near what would be for performance.

Niall, would you mind naming names, who exactly on that list are you talking about, it would help?

Sweeping generalizations never work.

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Re: Best internal guys alive today?

Postby Niall Keane on Sun Oct 02, 2016 6:59 am

D_Glenn wrote:Back in 2009 the question was asked: "Best internal guys alive today?"

And here's the answers, in the order they were mentioned:

mikhail ryabko
sam chin
serge augier
akuzawa minoru
vladamir vasiliev
yap cheng hai
vincent chu
su dong chen
paul whitrod
luo de xiu
william cc chen
peter ralston
chen yu
ma jiang bao
yun yin sen (lhbf)
xu ai zhai
gin soon
ken fish
xie bingcan
yo momma
ma chuanxu
qian zhaohong
yang hai
lin fuzhu
shan changwen
ck chu
mike patterson
master li
liu rui (zhaobao taiji)
li zhanhua (tongbeiquan)
he jinbao
chin lik keong and jimmy heow
yang guo tai
yuan shao liang
tim cartmell
dan docherty
li yen hoa student of chiu chuk kai
george xu
william de thours
marcus brinkman
lin guozheng
bill tucker
george wood
zhang yun
strider clark
henry wang
chu anchung
wai lun choi
li tailiang
yang fansheng
yao pei jing
albert (zheng) liu
malak rida
doc stier
fong ha
guo shilei
zhou jingxuan
zhang suisheng
denis sue-tin
dan harden
sam masich
chen zhonghua
lu sheng li
h won gim

Then, after necrothreading to 2016, Niall read the thread and wrote that all of the above are only doing "Boxercise or performance art".

Now I'm sure that there are a few guys up on that list who are exactly that, I wouldn't know, I've only met four of them and they are all proficient fighters and internal martial artists and teach arts that are nowhere near what would be for performance.

Niall, would you mind naming names, who exactly on that list are you talking about, it would help?

Sweeping generalizations never work.

.


No... misdirection again.
I have never said all in that list.. hardly would, not only are people with verifiable fight records and coaching achievements like Mike Patterson and Tom Cartmell there, but my own Sifu too - Dan Docherty . Pull the other one. There are plenty there with only in-house tuishou and application demonstration on students at best and just forms at worst.
If I name them I get banned from forum obviously enough, so I'll let you guys use your google-fu, although I'm fairly sure most already see a few chancers on the list.

I guess my whole point is how shocking it is to see the lack of questioning and so called martial artists not demanding objective proof. Like they say the plural of anecdote is not evidence. yet in ima it seems it is exactly that!

Take windy's last link... a write up of some lad who "stole" his art watching an awl lad in a park who does no excerices besides playing tuishou with all comers and even those martial artists twice his size end up on the ground astonished at his legendary skill that is the stuff of legend
The write up of course is on his website... and not a video to back it all up exists...
and yet they believe... is it because they need to? You must believe kung fu panda... you must believe!
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Re: Best internal guys alive today?

Postby Niall Keane on Sun Oct 02, 2016 7:08 am

I believe I also made the point that the second list to appear was substantial and contained alot of world class sanda people and almost none of them appeared on the original list.

As such like any propaganda that deliberatly edits out what is common knowledge we must view the entire list as irrelevant even if it is white washed with a few begrugingly accepted names. We also are forced to draw conclusion on those who drew up such a list of obvious omission .

Again on rsf.. we see a polarisation along the same lines as usual - the boxers and the boxercise boys, those who crazily insist on evidence and those who have the maturity to believe in hearsay and magic.

I didn't resurrect the thread btw!
Last edited by Niall Keane on Sun Oct 02, 2016 7:11 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Best internal guys alive today?

Postby D_Glenn on Sun Oct 02, 2016 7:10 am

Ah okay.

I too like to only study with teachers who can fight. That's the whole reason I started studying. But once I met a couple of teachers, they introduced me to others and I stuck with them. So I see no point, other than to satisfy curiosity, to go and practice with other teachers of unknown credentials.

I'm on your side of the argument.

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Re: Best internal guys alive today?

Postby Niall Keane on Sun Oct 02, 2016 7:12 am

D_Glenn wrote:Ah okay.

I too like to only study with teachers who can fight. That's the whole reason I started studying. But once I met a couple of teachers, they introduced me to others and I stuck with them. So I see no point, other than to satisfy curiosity, to go and practice with other teachers of unknown credentials.

I'm on your side of the argument.

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I agree on all points.
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Re: Best internal guys alive today?

Postby Niall Keane on Sun Oct 02, 2016 7:18 am

It should also be picked up how quickly the second list of fighters, in contrast to the first was challenged by people with fight experience.this should demonstrate or at least give a a good indication of the mentality of fighters.
Deception is a major part of fighting and the search for truth is conditioned into us. ;-)

Perhaps those crude male ritual contests lend us virtue?
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Re: Best internal guys alive today?

Postby Bao on Sun Oct 02, 2016 7:41 am

Interloper wrote:... Go to a bar on a Saturday night in a tough part of town, or a roadhouse, and you may see this drama unfold on a small scale. :)
...
...We practice martial arts as a symbolic depiction of ritual combat. We may perform it in a civil way, in the spirit of benevolence and cooperation, but its roots are very much the expression of ritual combat.


I really don't agree. We call it ART for a reason. The natural combat instinct is to imitate the other person's movements and trying to over power the other by strength. Copying, mirroring and over powering with the same kind of movements. If someone pushes, the other one push, if someone punch, the other person will punch similarly. Look at the movie Bridget Jones' Diary. You'll have a hard time to find a more realistic fight scene in any movie. I am totally serious about this. The scene in the end of movie shows almost exactly how a common, unrehearsed fight usually goes where the fighters are people without practice and no combat experience.

But in martial ARTS, we try to go beyond the natural instincts, do something else than reacting with pure aggression and instinct. We train to react in another way, so the opponent can not anticipate what we will do and can not copy it, because we use our body in a way that must be trained. So martial arts might have been developed from ritualistic combat, but it's also a development beyond ritual and in some ways striving to be exactly the opposite to what you are writing about.
Last edited by Bao on Sun Oct 02, 2016 7:43 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Best internal guys alive today?

Postby Interloper on Sun Oct 02, 2016 7:50 am

Bao wrote:I really don't agree. We call it ART for a reason. The natural combat instinct is to imitate the other person's movements and trying to over power the other by strength. Copying, mirroring and over powering with the same kind of movements. If someone pushes, the other one push, if someone punch, the other person will punch similarly. Look at the movie Bridget Jones' Diary. You'll have a hard time to find a more realistic fight scene in any movie. I am totally serious about this. The scene in the end of movie shows almost exactly how a common, unrehearsed fight usually goes where the fighters are people without practice and no combat experience.

But in martial ARTS, we try to go beyond the natural instincts, do something else than reacting with pure aggression and instinct. We train to react in another way, so the opponent can not anticipate what we will do and can not copy it, because we use our body in a way that must be trained. So martial arts might have been developed from ritualistic combat, but it's also a development beyond ritual and in some ways striving to be exactly the opposite to what you are writing about.


We call it art because we have made what was originally a primal (i.e. ancient, wired-in) function and behavior into an esoteric study. As an art, is is a symbolic abstraction of that behavior. In civil society we can do that; in war times (at least, in the low-tech sense, pre-modern weaponry), not so much. The pub brawls show that it doesn't take much alcohol to devolve from being gentlemen (and ladies) to territorial display behavior. ;)
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Re: Best internal guys alive today?

Postby phil b on Sun Oct 02, 2016 8:25 am

I wouldn't say it is necessary for a teacher to have competition experience, but it doesn't hurt. Having watched a big name teacher demonstrate an application that would get your arse handed to you if you tried it in any kind of free exchange, be it the ring, the streets, or a friendly exchange, I would say a little experience of fighting would have prevented such nonsense being shown. Needless to say, I never went back there.
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Re: Best internal guys alive today?

Postby windwalker on Sun Oct 02, 2016 8:30 am

No... misdirection again.
I have never said all in that list.. hardly would, not only are people with verifiable fight records and coaching achievements like Mike Patterson and Tom Cartmell there, but my own Sifu too - Dan Docherty . Pull the other one. There are plenty there with only in-house tuishou and application demonstration on students at best and just forms at worst.
If I name them I get banned from forum obviously enough, so I'll let you guys use your google-fu, although I'm fairly sure most already see a few chancers on the list.


na you won't

you should stand by your convictions and answer the question.
you have no problems mocking older Chinese masters, why not share what you feel about those listed..

from the OP

This isn't a question about the best fighters, btw

which you keep trying to make it about....

I guess my whole point is how shocking it is to see the lack of questioning and so called martial artists not demanding objective proof. Like they say the plural of anecdote is not evidence. yet in ima it seems it is exactly that!


Maybe many understand that its not about the ring, they go and meet with the people in question and find out for themselves.
As a list its not definitive,
Yes this is full on a popularity contest
as noted by the OP

Take windy's last link... a write up of some lad who "stole" his art watching an awl lad in a park who does no excerices besides playing tuishou with all comers and even those martial artists twice his size end up on the ground astonished at his legendary skill that is the stuff of legend
The write up of course is on his website... and not a video to back it all up exists
...

you might try reading it again,,,

That "awl lad" cool accent ;) was our teacher who at the time would for serious
inquirers allow them try what ever they wanted on him.

This would include one of the mods here ;)
a friendly test done in the spirit of inquiry.

Its not my web site I don't know who wrote the article up nor do I agree with
the style of writing. As far as the "content" all was/is factually true.

Those that know or knew Zhao, would echo what was written.
Oddly enough, he would probably agree with a lot what you've written about.
He and some others in Beijing visit different masters "testing" when possible ;)

In China, people get tested in many different ways...

and yet they believe... is it because they need to? You must believe kung fu panda... you must believe!


in most of your posts.

you seem to assume that others have no idea of ring fighting, never have done it or worked with those who have.
Most here as I, do have respect for it because many of us have worked closely
with people who do compete or have competed in various
events but maybe are really not interested in that aspect.
Last edited by windwalker on Sun Oct 02, 2016 8:42 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Best internal guys alive today?

Postby Niall Keane on Sun Oct 02, 2016 8:44 am

windwalker wrote:

you seem to assume that others have no idea of ring fighting, never have done it or worked with those who have.
Most here as I, do have respect for it because many of us have worked closely
with people who do compete or have competed in various
events but maybe are really not interested in that aspect.


I think Phil b I the previous post to yours answers that.
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Re: Best internal guys alive today?

Postby windwalker on Sun Oct 02, 2016 8:53 am

phil b wrote:I wouldn't say it is necessary for a teacher to have competition experience, but it doesn't hurt. Having watched a big name teacher demonstrate an application that would get your arse handed to you if you tried it in any kind of free exchange, be it the ring, the streets, or a friendly exchange, I would say a little experience of fighting would have prevented such nonsense being shown. Needless to say, I never went back there.


why is it that people have no problems posting links of some teachers or naming names,,,and with others they don't?

"big name teacher"

I would think if one is motivated to post something good or bad, they would post it regardless along with some commentary
or clip showing what they found objectionable or at least give those who practice with
the teacher or even the teacher themselves a chance to respond.

https://www.yelp.com/about

a site thats used for businesses.
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Re: Best internal guys alive today?

Postby Niall Keane on Sun Oct 02, 2016 2:41 pm

windwalker wrote:
phil b wrote:I wouldn't say it is necessary for a teacher to have competition experience, but it doesn't hurt. Having watched a big name teacher demonstrate an application that would get your arse handed to you if you tried it in any kind of free exchange, be it the ring, the streets, or a friendly exchange, I would say a little experience of fighting would have prevented such nonsense being shown. Needless to say, I never went back there.


why is it that people have no problems posting links of some teachers or naming names,,,and with others they don't?

"big name teacher"



I would think if one is motivated to post something good or bad, they would post it regardless along with some commentary
or clip showing what they found objectionable or at least give those who practice with
the teacher or even the teacher themselves a chance to respond.

https://www.yelp.com/about

a site thats used for businesses.



Hold on now pal! I already commented on a link you posted, but I can't just go posting on bullshit that isn't already involved in discussion as explained. Take that boards.i.e. site. No-one can talk about an Irish ma crowd there and it's up on the forum rules. These lads one cannot speak about are Utter bullshit and everyone who is anyone knows... but they have put in place a legal threat about discussing them.
There is a fine legal line between discussion and defamation. You won't get me to cross it as much as it would suit you to do so!
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