Best internal guys alive today?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Best internal guys alive today?

Postby Interloper on Sat Oct 01, 2016 4:27 pm

Bao wrote:
Interloper wrote:What is being discussed here is largely male ritual combat, which is fine for what it is.


IMO, the name Martial ART, as defined by the word art, is the definition of something very much opposite to primitive ritual.


Male ritual combat is a specific behavior demonstrated by humans and other social primates, and, in fact numerous species of mammal, bird, fish, even insect. There are certain "rules" inherent in the process, one being that the male that backs down and submits is allowed to live. There are aberrations and accidents in which males die in the process of ritual combat, but generally the rule is one male dominates and wins (the fight, the turf, the female...) and the other is the admitted loser and is allowed to leave as long as the spoils go to the winner. Go to a bar on a Saturday night in a tough part of town, or a roadhouse, and you may see this drama unfold on a small scale. :)

We practice martial arts as a symbolic depiction of ritual combat. We may perform it in a civil way, in the spirit of benevolence and cooperation, but its roots are very much the expression of ritual combat.
Pariah without peer
User avatar
Interloper
Great Old One
 
Posts: 4653
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:35 pm
Location: USA

Re: Best internal guys alive today?

Postby Interloper on Sat Oct 01, 2016 4:33 pm

Niall Keane wrote:
As for male ritual combat....sounds like a fear-inspired anti-violence theory, to reduce the achievements of courage... typical tyranny of the weak. There are plenty of women who fight sanda, mma, muay thai and boxing. Dont make excuses!


Nope. Male ritual combat is a natural behavior that runs throughout the animal kingdom and has specific behaviors. This is an objective observation, and I spent some years doing graduate studies in primate evolutionary ecology and anthropology. Note that I said that some women do fight; Nature is not black-and-white, Yin or Yang. There are varying degrees of behavior in both men and women... in part perhaps due to varying levels of testosterone even in females -- different levels of aggression and drive. But the territorial instinct that initiates war and martial combat is overwhelmingly male... which is why most if not all martial arts were created by men, for men, with women learning them mainly for self-defense (largely against men!). Hey, Nature is Nature.
Pariah without peer
User avatar
Interloper
Great Old One
 
Posts: 4653
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:35 pm
Location: USA

Re: Best internal guys alive today?

Postby windwalker on Sat Oct 01, 2016 4:49 pm

Interloper wrote:
Niall Keane wrote:
As for male ritual combat....sounds like a fear-inspired anti-violence theory, to reduce the achievements of courage... typical tyranny of the weak. There are plenty of women who fight sanda, mma, muay thai and boxing. Dont make excuses!


Nope. Male ritual combat is a natural behavior that runs throughout the animal kingdom and has specific behaviors. This is an objective observation, and I spent some years doing graduate studies in primate evolutionary ecology and anthropology. Note that I said that some women do fight; Nature is not black-and-white, Yin or Yang. There are varying degrees of behavior in both men and women... in part perhaps due to varying levels of testosterone even in females -- different levels of aggression and drive. But the territorial instinct that initiates war and martial combat is overwhelmingly male... which is why most if not all martial arts were created by men, for men, with women learning them mainly for self-defense (largely against men!). Hey, Nature is Nature.


I think by understanding the behavior, and coming to grips with it within ones self.
One can be free to act with freedom from it and not be trapped by it.

which on another thread was alluded to by an old friend and teacher of mine.

At what some would say was the height of my career as a writing in the field of kung-fu, and the height of my physical capabilities as well, I put it all down. I closed the school I had built. I put everything in storage. I put a few essentials in a backpack, and I went into a forest... and began to look inward for the answers.

From the Shaolin side of things, you probably know that the temple was the home of Chan Buddhism, and that after six or so generations, perhaps with the teachings of Hui Neng, Chan lost the last vestiges of it's Indian core to become a legitimately Chinese, home-grown practice. And that many generations later Chan made its way into Japan as Zen Buddhism.

And of course you know that Shaolin was also the home of the very important school of kung-fu by the same name... with all its offshoots.

But there is more to kung-fu that kicking and punching, or seeing who can kick whose ass.
There is a whole side of it that is often relegated to the quaint,
which it should perhaps be its most important feature.

I may have "dissapeared," from view, but "dissapeared" into clarity.

I became both lost, from view, and found within myself.

What more could one ask of kung-fu than this?

Mike P. Staples
Last edited by windwalker on Sat Oct 01, 2016 4:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
rule 19
windwalker
Wuji
 
Posts: 5968
Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 4:08 am

Re: Best internal guys alive today?

Postby Steve James on Sat Oct 01, 2016 4:56 pm

For humans, part of the male ritual is also the discussion of the male ritual. Humans rationalize their reasons for participation. The biggest difference is that male animals need to demonstrate dominance in order to gain reproductive rights with females. This is completely different from males fighting for survival from predators or protecting their females. The goals are different; one is a ritual; the other isn't.

In nature, it's usually the biggest male. The practice of martial arts mitigates that advantage; so, martial artists once trained to be the protectors of their societies. People with no intention to do so can also practice martial arts, and they can also engage in the ritual of combat sports. Someone is always going to be better and someone will be worse; so, "best" will always be relative.

Afa hocus pocus and charlatans in the martial arts, I think they've been there from the time people saw what could be achieved by trained people. The problem today is that people take offense if it's asserted that charlatans exist. Well, that's why the arguments are endless on the issue. But, it's part of the ritual ;)
"A man is rich when he has time and freewill. How he chooses to invest both will determine the return on his investment."
User avatar
Steve James
Great Old One
 
Posts: 16069
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 8:20 am

Re: Best internal guys alive today?

Postby Interloper on Sat Oct 01, 2016 6:43 pm

windwalker wrote:
I think by understanding the behavior, and coming to grips with it within ones self.
One can be free to act with freedom from it and not be trapped by it.


Agreed.
Pariah without peer
User avatar
Interloper
Great Old One
 
Posts: 4653
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:35 pm
Location: USA

Re: Best internal guys alive today?

Postby Niall Keane on Sun Oct 02, 2016 12:35 am

Ah yes... the argument gets piss poor entirely...

So if you can't fight with your martial art thats ok, you can still be the best internal martial artist because.... guns!

As for the rest of ye .... with the reduction of martial art to "primitative male ritual", maybe your martial dabbling isn't up to much and never touches the artful? Perhaps consider that you now exhibit primitive herd mentality?
The Emperor has no clothes on!
User avatar
Niall Keane
Wuji
 
Posts: 761
Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2010 4:45 pm
Location: Ireland

Re: Best internal guys alive today?

Postby Steve James on Sun Oct 02, 2016 6:03 am

Well, the ritual aspect is that the argument is unnecessary, fruitless and primarily an expression of ego.
"A man is rich when he has time and freewill. How he chooses to invest both will determine the return on his investment."
User avatar
Steve James
Great Old One
 
Posts: 16069
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 8:20 am

Re: Best internal guys alive today?

Postby Interloper on Sun Oct 02, 2016 6:13 am

Niall Keane wrote:Ah yes... the argument gets piss poor entirely...

So if you can't fight with your martial art thats ok, you can still be the best internal martial artist because.... guns!

As for the rest of ye .... with the reduction of martial art to "primitative male ritual", maybe your martial dabbling isn't up to much and never touches the artful? Perhaps consider that you now exhibit primitive herd mentality?


I personally believe that you should be able to use your skills effectively for self-defense, to save your life and others' lives. I enjoy watching competitive fighters, but I don't give a rat's rump whether I can play in the competition ring with it. From an academic standpoint, I like to see someone who has complete command over internal body method -- being able to create and maintain total awareness and a unified structure, 6-directional energy, and be able to manipulate and apply it in a number of ways to achieve specific effects on a non-compliant, resisting, aggressive attacker.

From a practical standpoint, I want to be able to use it combatively to defend myself. That's how I train, under increasing pressure and duress. I also train traditionally, for the beauty of the skills and the forms themselves. There should be a balance of both in a martial art. This is not knocking competitive fighters; that's a whole other thing, and it's fine in its own right. But the ring isn't real life, either. IMO it is not legitimate to judge "who is the best internal guy" simply by how he can apply his skills in the competition ring.

And who said that martial are a primitive male ritual? They are symbolic derivatives of a very primal (not the same meaning as "primitive") human drive, expressed in male territorial displays and dominance-hierarchy ritual in virtually all social animal species. This is objective. Don't take it personally. ;) All of us are acting on drives that are wired into us by millions of years of living on Planet Earth.
Pariah without peer
User avatar
Interloper
Great Old One
 
Posts: 4653
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:35 pm
Location: USA

Re: Best internal guys alive today?

Postby Interloper on Sun Oct 02, 2016 6:14 am

Steve, some of us like to see internet forums as places for rational discussion. But those of us who do are largely delusional or at least hopelessly optimistic. :D
Pariah without peer
User avatar
Interloper
Great Old One
 
Posts: 4653
Joined: Tue May 13, 2008 5:35 pm
Location: USA

Re: Best internal guys alive today?

Postby D_Glenn on Sun Oct 02, 2016 6:16 am

Back in 2009 the question was asked: "Best internal guys alive today?"

And here's the answers, in the order they were mentioned:

mikhail ryabko
sam chin
serge augier
akuzawa minoru
vladamir vasiliev
yap cheng hai
vincent chu
su dong chen
paul whitrod
luo de xiu
william cc chen
peter ralston
chen yu
ma jiang bao
yun yin sen (lhbf)
xu ai zhai
gin soon
ken fish
xie bingcan
yo momma
ma chuanxu
qian zhaohong
yang hai
lin fuzhu
shan changwen
ck chu
mike patterson
master li
liu rui (zhaobao taiji)
li zhanhua (tongbeiquan)
he jinbao
chin lik keong and jimmy heow
yang guo tai
yuan shao liang
tim cartmell
dan docherty
li yen hoa student of chiu chuk kai
george xu
william de thours
marcus brinkman
lin guozheng
bill tucker
george wood
zhang yun
strider clark
henry wang
chu anchung
wai lun choi
li tailiang
yang fansheng
yao pei jing
albert (zheng) liu
malak rida
doc stier
fong ha
guo shilei
zhou jingxuan
zhang suisheng
denis sue-tin
dan harden
sam masich
chen zhonghua
lu sheng li
h won gim

Then, after necrothreading to 2016, Niall read the thread and wrote that all of the above are only doing "Boxercise or performance art".

Now I'm sure that there are a few guys up on that list who are exactly that, I wouldn't know, I've only met four of them and they are all proficient fighters and internal martial artists and teach arts that are nowhere near what would be for performance.

Niall, would you mind naming names, who exactly on that list are you talking about, it would help?

Sweeping generalizations never work.

.
User avatar
D_Glenn
Great Old One
 
Posts: 4712
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 4:04 pm

Re: Best internal guys alive today?

Postby Niall Keane on Sun Oct 02, 2016 6:59 am

D_Glenn wrote:Back in 2009 the question was asked: "Best internal guys alive today?"

And here's the answers, in the order they were mentioned:

mikhail ryabko
sam chin
serge augier
akuzawa minoru
vladamir vasiliev
yap cheng hai
vincent chu
su dong chen
paul whitrod
luo de xiu
william cc chen
peter ralston
chen yu
ma jiang bao
yun yin sen (lhbf)
xu ai zhai
gin soon
ken fish
xie bingcan
yo momma
ma chuanxu
qian zhaohong
yang hai
lin fuzhu
shan changwen
ck chu
mike patterson
master li
liu rui (zhaobao taiji)
li zhanhua (tongbeiquan)
he jinbao
chin lik keong and jimmy heow
yang guo tai
yuan shao liang
tim cartmell
dan docherty
li yen hoa student of chiu chuk kai
george xu
william de thours
marcus brinkman
lin guozheng
bill tucker
george wood
zhang yun
strider clark
henry wang
chu anchung
wai lun choi
li tailiang
yang fansheng
yao pei jing
albert (zheng) liu
malak rida
doc stier
fong ha
guo shilei
zhou jingxuan
zhang suisheng
denis sue-tin
dan harden
sam masich
chen zhonghua
lu sheng li
h won gim

Then, after necrothreading to 2016, Niall read the thread and wrote that all of the above are only doing "Boxercise or performance art".

Now I'm sure that there are a few guys up on that list who are exactly that, I wouldn't know, I've only met four of them and they are all proficient fighters and internal martial artists and teach arts that are nowhere near what would be for performance.

Niall, would you mind naming names, who exactly on that list are you talking about, it would help?

Sweeping generalizations never work.

.


No... misdirection again.
I have never said all in that list.. hardly would, not only are people with verifiable fight records and coaching achievements like Mike Patterson and Tom Cartmell there, but my own Sifu too - Dan Docherty . Pull the other one. There are plenty there with only in-house tuishou and application demonstration on students at best and just forms at worst.
If I name them I get banned from forum obviously enough, so I'll let you guys use your google-fu, although I'm fairly sure most already see a few chancers on the list.

I guess my whole point is how shocking it is to see the lack of questioning and so called martial artists not demanding objective proof. Like they say the plural of anecdote is not evidence. yet in ima it seems it is exactly that!

Take windy's last link... a write up of some lad who "stole" his art watching an awl lad in a park who does no excerices besides playing tuishou with all comers and even those martial artists twice his size end up on the ground astonished at his legendary skill that is the stuff of legend
The write up of course is on his website... and not a video to back it all up exists...
and yet they believe... is it because they need to? You must believe kung fu panda... you must believe!
The Emperor has no clothes on!
User avatar
Niall Keane
Wuji
 
Posts: 761
Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2010 4:45 pm
Location: Ireland

Re: Best internal guys alive today?

Postby Niall Keane on Sun Oct 02, 2016 7:08 am

I believe I also made the point that the second list to appear was substantial and contained alot of world class sanda people and almost none of them appeared on the original list.

As such like any propaganda that deliberatly edits out what is common knowledge we must view the entire list as irrelevant even if it is white washed with a few begrugingly accepted names. We also are forced to draw conclusion on those who drew up such a list of obvious omission .

Again on rsf.. we see a polarisation along the same lines as usual - the boxers and the boxercise boys, those who crazily insist on evidence and those who have the maturity to believe in hearsay and magic.

I didn't resurrect the thread btw!
Last edited by Niall Keane on Sun Oct 02, 2016 7:11 am, edited 3 times in total.
The Emperor has no clothes on!
User avatar
Niall Keane
Wuji
 
Posts: 761
Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2010 4:45 pm
Location: Ireland

Re: Best internal guys alive today?

Postby D_Glenn on Sun Oct 02, 2016 7:10 am

Ah okay.

I too like to only study with teachers who can fight. That's the whole reason I started studying. But once I met a couple of teachers, they introduced me to others and I stuck with them. So I see no point, other than to satisfy curiosity, to go and practice with other teachers of unknown credentials.

I'm on your side of the argument.

.
User avatar
D_Glenn
Great Old One
 
Posts: 4712
Joined: Fri May 16, 2008 4:04 pm

Re: Best internal guys alive today?

Postby Niall Keane on Sun Oct 02, 2016 7:12 am

D_Glenn wrote:Ah okay.

I too like to only study with teachers who can fight. That's the whole reason I started studying. But once I met a couple of teachers, they introduced me to others and I stuck with them. So I see no point, other than to satisfy curiosity, to go and practice with other teachers of unknown credentials.

I'm on your side of the argument.

.


I agree on all points.
The Emperor has no clothes on!
User avatar
Niall Keane
Wuji
 
Posts: 761
Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2010 4:45 pm
Location: Ireland

Re: Best internal guys alive today?

Postby Niall Keane on Sun Oct 02, 2016 7:18 am

It should also be picked up how quickly the second list of fighters, in contrast to the first was challenged by people with fight experience.this should demonstrate or at least give a a good indication of the mentality of fighters.
Deception is a major part of fighting and the search for truth is conditioned into us. ;-)

Perhaps those crude male ritual contests lend us virtue?
The Emperor has no clothes on!
User avatar
Niall Keane
Wuji
 
Posts: 761
Joined: Sun Jul 25, 2010 4:45 pm
Location: Ireland

PreviousNext

Return to Xingyiquan - Baguazhang - Taijiquan

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest