Best internal guys alive today?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Best internal guys alive today?

Postby Bao on Sun Oct 02, 2016 7:41 am

Interloper wrote:... Go to a bar on a Saturday night in a tough part of town, or a roadhouse, and you may see this drama unfold on a small scale. :)
...
...We practice martial arts as a symbolic depiction of ritual combat. We may perform it in a civil way, in the spirit of benevolence and cooperation, but its roots are very much the expression of ritual combat.


I really don't agree. We call it ART for a reason. The natural combat instinct is to imitate the other person's movements and trying to over power the other by strength. Copying, mirroring and over powering with the same kind of movements. If someone pushes, the other one push, if someone punch, the other person will punch similarly. Look at the movie Bridget Jones' Diary. You'll have a hard time to find a more realistic fight scene in any movie. I am totally serious about this. The scene in the end of movie shows almost exactly how a common, unrehearsed fight usually goes where the fighters are people without practice and no combat experience.

But in martial ARTS, we try to go beyond the natural instincts, do something else than reacting with pure aggression and instinct. We train to react in another way, so the opponent can not anticipate what we will do and can not copy it, because we use our body in a way that must be trained. So martial arts might have been developed from ritualistic combat, but it's also a development beyond ritual and in some ways striving to be exactly the opposite to what you are writing about.
Last edited by Bao on Sun Oct 02, 2016 7:43 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Best internal guys alive today?

Postby Interloper on Sun Oct 02, 2016 7:50 am

Bao wrote:I really don't agree. We call it ART for a reason. The natural combat instinct is to imitate the other person's movements and trying to over power the other by strength. Copying, mirroring and over powering with the same kind of movements. If someone pushes, the other one push, if someone punch, the other person will punch similarly. Look at the movie Bridget Jones' Diary. You'll have a hard time to find a more realistic fight scene in any movie. I am totally serious about this. The scene in the end of movie shows almost exactly how a common, unrehearsed fight usually goes where the fighters are people without practice and no combat experience.

But in martial ARTS, we try to go beyond the natural instincts, do something else than reacting with pure aggression and instinct. We train to react in another way, so the opponent can not anticipate what we will do and can not copy it, because we use our body in a way that must be trained. So martial arts might have been developed from ritualistic combat, but it's also a development beyond ritual and in some ways striving to be exactly the opposite to what you are writing about.


We call it art because we have made what was originally a primal (i.e. ancient, wired-in) function and behavior into an esoteric study. As an art, is is a symbolic abstraction of that behavior. In civil society we can do that; in war times (at least, in the low-tech sense, pre-modern weaponry), not so much. The pub brawls show that it doesn't take much alcohol to devolve from being gentlemen (and ladies) to territorial display behavior. ;)
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Re: Best internal guys alive today?

Postby phil b on Sun Oct 02, 2016 8:25 am

I wouldn't say it is necessary for a teacher to have competition experience, but it doesn't hurt. Having watched a big name teacher demonstrate an application that would get your arse handed to you if you tried it in any kind of free exchange, be it the ring, the streets, or a friendly exchange, I would say a little experience of fighting would have prevented such nonsense being shown. Needless to say, I never went back there.
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Re: Best internal guys alive today?

Postby windwalker on Sun Oct 02, 2016 8:30 am

No... misdirection again.
I have never said all in that list.. hardly would, not only are people with verifiable fight records and coaching achievements like Mike Patterson and Tom Cartmell there, but my own Sifu too - Dan Docherty . Pull the other one. There are plenty there with only in-house tuishou and application demonstration on students at best and just forms at worst.
If I name them I get banned from forum obviously enough, so I'll let you guys use your google-fu, although I'm fairly sure most already see a few chancers on the list.


na you won't

you should stand by your convictions and answer the question.
you have no problems mocking older Chinese masters, why not share what you feel about those listed..

from the OP

This isn't a question about the best fighters, btw

which you keep trying to make it about....

I guess my whole point is how shocking it is to see the lack of questioning and so called martial artists not demanding objective proof. Like they say the plural of anecdote is not evidence. yet in ima it seems it is exactly that!


Maybe many understand that its not about the ring, they go and meet with the people in question and find out for themselves.
As a list its not definitive,
Yes this is full on a popularity contest
as noted by the OP

Take windy's last link... a write up of some lad who "stole" his art watching an awl lad in a park who does no excerices besides playing tuishou with all comers and even those martial artists twice his size end up on the ground astonished at his legendary skill that is the stuff of legend
The write up of course is on his website... and not a video to back it all up exists
...

you might try reading it again,,,

That "awl lad" cool accent ;) was our teacher who at the time would for serious
inquirers allow them try what ever they wanted on him.

This would include one of the mods here ;)
a friendly test done in the spirit of inquiry.

Its not my web site I don't know who wrote the article up nor do I agree with
the style of writing. As far as the "content" all was/is factually true.

Those that know or knew Zhao, would echo what was written.
Oddly enough, he would probably agree with a lot what you've written about.
He and some others in Beijing visit different masters "testing" when possible ;)

In China, people get tested in many different ways...

and yet they believe... is it because they need to? You must believe kung fu panda... you must believe!


in most of your posts.

you seem to assume that others have no idea of ring fighting, never have done it or worked with those who have.
Most here as I, do have respect for it because many of us have worked closely
with people who do compete or have competed in various
events but maybe are really not interested in that aspect.
Last edited by windwalker on Sun Oct 02, 2016 8:42 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Best internal guys alive today?

Postby Niall Keane on Sun Oct 02, 2016 8:44 am

windwalker wrote:

you seem to assume that others have no idea of ring fighting, never have done it or worked with those who have.
Most here as I, do have respect for it because many of us have worked closely
with people who do compete or have competed in various
events but maybe are really not interested in that aspect.


I think Phil b I the previous post to yours answers that.
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Re: Best internal guys alive today?

Postby windwalker on Sun Oct 02, 2016 8:53 am

phil b wrote:I wouldn't say it is necessary for a teacher to have competition experience, but it doesn't hurt. Having watched a big name teacher demonstrate an application that would get your arse handed to you if you tried it in any kind of free exchange, be it the ring, the streets, or a friendly exchange, I would say a little experience of fighting would have prevented such nonsense being shown. Needless to say, I never went back there.


why is it that people have no problems posting links of some teachers or naming names,,,and with others they don't?

"big name teacher"

I would think if one is motivated to post something good or bad, they would post it regardless along with some commentary
or clip showing what they found objectionable or at least give those who practice with
the teacher or even the teacher themselves a chance to respond.

https://www.yelp.com/about

a site thats used for businesses.
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Re: Best internal guys alive today?

Postby Niall Keane on Sun Oct 02, 2016 2:41 pm

windwalker wrote:
phil b wrote:I wouldn't say it is necessary for a teacher to have competition experience, but it doesn't hurt. Having watched a big name teacher demonstrate an application that would get your arse handed to you if you tried it in any kind of free exchange, be it the ring, the streets, or a friendly exchange, I would say a little experience of fighting would have prevented such nonsense being shown. Needless to say, I never went back there.


why is it that people have no problems posting links of some teachers or naming names,,,and with others they don't?

"big name teacher"



I would think if one is motivated to post something good or bad, they would post it regardless along with some commentary
or clip showing what they found objectionable or at least give those who practice with
the teacher or even the teacher themselves a chance to respond.

https://www.yelp.com/about

a site thats used for businesses.



Hold on now pal! I already commented on a link you posted, but I can't just go posting on bullshit that isn't already involved in discussion as explained. Take that boards.i.e. site. No-one can talk about an Irish ma crowd there and it's up on the forum rules. These lads one cannot speak about are Utter bullshit and everyone who is anyone knows... but they have put in place a legal threat about discussing them.
There is a fine legal line between discussion and defamation. You won't get me to cross it as much as it would suit you to do so!
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Re: Best internal guys alive today?

Postby phil b on Sun Oct 02, 2016 3:47 pm

windwalker wrote:
phil b wrote:I wouldn't say it is necessary for a teacher to have competition experience, but it doesn't hurt. Having watched a big name teacher demonstrate an application that would get your arse handed to you if you tried it in any kind of free exchange, be it the ring, the streets, or a friendly exchange, I would say a little experience of fighting would have prevented such nonsense being shown. Needless to say, I never went back there.


why is it that people have no problems posting links of some teachers or naming names,,,and with others they don't?

"big name teacher"

I would think if one is motivated to post something good or bad, they would post it regardless along with some commentary
or clip showing what they found objectionable or at least give those who practice with
the teacher or even the teacher themselves a chance to respond.

https://www.yelp.com/about

a site thats used for businesses.


Firstly, I'm not naming the teacher because we all know how that would turn out. I have previously been told I don't know what I'm talking about and had personal attacks aimed at me when discussing people I've had hands on experience with. In one thread, I was told I was wrong and knew nothing, for commenting on a video which had my kung fu brother in. The RSF and it's moderators are not impartial.

Secondly, my point is that some teachers are more scholar than fighter. That's fine, both have value, but each should stick to what they know and be honest about it.

Finally, the incident I mentioned is not on video. I was at one of the teacher's regular classes. I could trawl youtube and would probably find something as an example, but to what end? It won't further the ddiscussion.

For some, real world experience is of no importance and nothing will change that.
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Re: Best internal guys alive today?

Postby windwalker on Sun Oct 02, 2016 4:34 pm

phil b wrote:
windwalker wrote:
phil b wrote:I wouldn't say it is necessary for a teacher to have competition experience, but it doesn't hurt. Having watched a big name teacher demonstrate an application that would get your arse handed to you if you tried it in any kind of free exchange, be it the ring, the streets, or a friendly exchange, I would say a little experience of fighting would have prevented such nonsense being shown. Needless to say, I never went back there.


why is it that people have no problems posting links of some teachers or naming names,,,and with others they don't?

"big name teacher"

I would think if one is motivated to post something good or bad, they would post it regardless along with some commentary
or clip showing what they found objectionable or at least give those who practice with
the teacher or even the teacher themselves a chance to respond.

https://www.yelp.com/about

a site thats used for businesses.


Firstly, I'm not naming the teacher because we all know how that would turn out. I have previously been told I don't know what I'm talking about and had personal attacks aimed at me when discussing people I've had hands on experience with.

In one thread, I was told I was wrong and knew nothing, for commenting on a video which had my kung fu brother in.

The RSF and it's moderators are not impartial.

Secondly, my point is that some teachers are more scholar than fighter.
That's fine, both have value, but each should stick to what they know and be honest about it.

Finally, the incident I mentioned is not on video. I was at one of the teacher's regular classes.
I could trawl youtube and would probably find something as an example,
but to what end? It won't further the discussion.

For some, real world experience is of no importance and nothing will change that.


thanks for an honest answer.
agree with most of your points.
Last edited by windwalker on Sun Oct 02, 2016 5:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Best internal guys alive today?

Postby ambulocetus on Wed Dec 14, 2016 4:49 pm

I work 60 or 70 hours a week, but I still manage to get in 2 sixty minute classes a week. What I take from this thread is that since I'm 51 and I don't have sufficient health insurance to jump in the ring with professional athletes half my age, then I should just stay home and watch TV. Thanks for the encouragement, Niall. Now I remember why I don't come here much anymore.
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Re: Best internal guys alive today?

Postby liokault on Thu Dec 15, 2016 1:08 am

ambulocetus wrote:I work 60 or 70 hours a week, but I still manage to get in 2 sixty minute classes a week. What I take from this thread is that since I'm 51 and I don't have sufficient health insurance to jump in the ring with professional athletes half my age, then I should just stay home and watch TV. Thanks for the encouragement, Niall. Now I remember why I don't come here much anymore.


It depends what your goals are.

I fully believe you can become "good" at your "art" in 2 hours a week of class plus homework, if you run the course for long enough.

I fully believe that you cannot become "good" at “fighting” if you don’t “fight”. It doesn’t have to be full on anything, it just has to be stressful, un-choreographed, of uncertain outcome and with negative consequences for failure.

I fully believe that being good at your art and being good at fighting are not necessarily related.

I fully believe your health care system is totally fucked up. Seriously, in the last 20 or os years, I have broken 3 bones, done my ACL, detached a biceps and notably received a knee to the groin seeing one testicle become a solid lump the size of a large fist, all whilst totally self-employed…just hobble into hospital, fix this please….hobble out after a long wait but top quality care.
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Re: Best internal guys alive today?

Postby I am... on Thu Dec 15, 2016 12:36 pm

Agreed, well put. I would only add that in many arts, fighting is a prerequisite to being good. I don't think a boxer or wrestler would call themselves good if they were not skilled at beating others at boxing or wrestling.
Last edited by I am... on Thu Dec 15, 2016 12:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Best internal guys alive today?

Postby Silverone on Wed Jan 04, 2017 1:58 am

Can I add (Daniel) Wang Yunkuo, Sydney, Australia to the list. Generational teacher of Seven Star Praying Mantis and Tai Yi Tai Chi Chuan. Doctor of Traditional Chinese Medicine and previously 10 years as a self-defence instructor in the Chinese Army. http://www.kungfu-republic.com.au/

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Re: Best internal guys alive today?

Postby Dmitri on Wed Jan 04, 2017 5:14 am

Someone start a thread titled "best actors alive today". Or "best food available today". Or "best colors ever". They'll be just as informative, useful and productive as this thread has been. :P ::)
Last edited by Dmitri on Wed Jan 04, 2017 5:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Best internal guys alive today?

Postby wiesiek on Wed Jan 04, 2017 5:22 am

me thinkin`, that even better :D
joyful usefullnes of the effords
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