Do you treat your circle walk as Qigong or purely physical?

[Bob]

Some of the literature suggests that DHC practiced a martial art long before he had any encounter with the Daoist Sect he supposedly learned the circle walking from.

[Haoran]

YES!!! What Meeks Said X2

[lazyboxer]

Scientists from Tübingen, Germany, show that people really walk in circles when lost

"We instructed people to walk straight while blindfolded, thus removing the effects of vision. Most of the participants in the study walked in circles, sometimes in extremely small ones (diameter less than 20 m).” http://www.kyb.mpg.de/press/2009/souman.html

Comments are invited...

[TaoJoannes]

Didn't this whole art start from "walking meditation"?
The way I understood it, the walking meditation came first, then they added the MA components into THAT practice to come up with what we know as bagua.
DHC: "Teach me how to fight, monk!"
Monk: "Go walk around that tree till you learn something."

that is a common misconception often portrayed from schools that practice empty forms. Circle walking is a physical struggle, difficult to maintain, and is very demanding conditioning. Done correctly you'll develop some mad skillz and power. But if you're just holding your hands in the air wondering if your form looks good you might as well go sit down, you're not utilizing your time efficiently.

the real story is more like:
"teach me how to fight, monk"
"ok, walk around that tree the way I showed you to until your a fucking badass"

for example, if you walk in a circle, twisted towards center, in 'ta zhang' (some schools call it something else) - where your hands are palm down at waist height every day for 1 year with proper jin, not just "I'm coordinating breath with movement to feel my qi as I walk like I'm rolling pencils under my feet" circle walking, you'll have some amazing power. Ta zhang is an iron palm exercise...but it only works if you do it correctly for at least an hours a day...not 8 steps x 2 directions.
Unfortunately most schools teach bagua forms only. that means 8 steps change direction 8 steps change palm. repeat until you've gone through your 8 palm changes. move on to something else...would you like to learn my xing yi now? (little dig at a 'bagua' school in Vancouver) they know bagua forms - they don't know bagua.

there's physical training, and there's meditation. some meditation is standing, some sitting. some is moving. but the palm changes, while having a qi gong effect are conditioning. If you want to do dynamic bagua qi gong, I've got oodles of exercises from our bagua system - none of it even remotely resembles 'bagua'. the focus of circle walking is not qi. if you only think about qi you'll never really get past that.

In the illustrious words of my old bagua shifu who trained bagua and almost nothing but bagua his whole life (since the 1930s - and he's still alive today in his 80s):
"Yang shifu, what about the qi in this posture?"
*smacks your face, hard* "think qi? no real. think jin? have qi naturally. practice jin, qi come. no practice jin, maybe little qi come" *makes hand gesture to symbolize a measurement of 1/2" *

What I mean to say is that the practice of walking meditation definitely predates bagua as a qigong practice in its own right and was originally introduced to DHC as a qigong practice that he slapped his alterations on for martial (and more qigong) purposes.

[I am...]

Didn't this whole art start from "walking meditation"?
The way I understood it, the walking meditation came first, then they added the MA components into THAT practice to come up with what we know as bagua.
DHC: "Teach me how to fight, monk!"
Monk: "Go walk around that tree till you learn something."

that is a common misconception often portrayed from schools that practice empty forms. Circle walking is a physical struggle, difficult to maintain, and is very demanding conditioning. Done correctly you'll develop some mad skillz and power. But if you're just holding your hands in the air wondering if your form looks good you might as well go sit down, you're not utilizing your time efficiently.

the real story is more like:
"teach me how to fight, monk"
"ok, walk around that tree the way I showed you to until your a fucking badass"

for example, if you walk in a circle, twisted towards center, in 'ta zhang' (some schools call it something else) - where your hands are palm down at waist height every day for 1 year with proper jin, not just "I'm coordinating breath with movement to feel my qi as I walk like I'm rolling pencils under my feet" circle walking, you'll have some amazing power. Ta zhang is an iron palm exercise...but it only works if you do it correctly for at least an hours a day...not 8 steps x 2 directions.
Unfortunately most schools teach bagua forms only. that means 8 steps change direction 8 steps change palm. repeat until you've gone through your 8 palm changes. move on to something else...would you like to learn my xing yi now? (little dig at a 'bagua' school in Vancouver) they know bagua forms - they don't know bagua.

there's physical training, and there's meditation. some meditation is standing, some sitting. some is moving. but the palm changes, while having a qi gong effect are conditioning. If you want to do dynamic bagua qi gong, I've got oodles of exercises from our bagua system - none of it even remotely resembles 'bagua'. the focus of circle walking is not qi. if you only think about qi you'll never really get past that.

In the illustrious words of my old bagua shifu who trained bagua and almost nothing but bagua his whole life (since the 1930s - and he's still alive today in his 80s):
"Yang shifu, what about the qi in this posture?"
*smacks your face, hard* "think qi? no real. think jin? have qi naturally. practice jin, qi come. no practice jin, maybe little qi come" *makes hand gesture to symbolize a measurement of 1/2" *

What I mean to say is that the practice of walking meditation definitely predates bagua as a qigong practice in its own right and was originally introduced to DHC as a qigong practice that he slapped his alterations on for martial (and more qigong) purposes.

Indeed, I practice walking meditation outside of any martial practices that I do, and it has been a part of the Buddhist monastic practice for a very long time. Often very slow walking, sometimes one step each breath, for up to an hour, between sitting sessions. That may have been a root of the practice for bagua, but the type of walking that Meeks describes is not found in the foundational meditative disciplines that I am aware of. On a base level, meditative practices cultivate mindfulness, while jin training cultivates mindfulness plus some things not found in the older non martial practice, potentially of great value to the artist if done correctly. One could as well make the point that if mindfulness is strong enough, martial arts practice as a side is sort of moot, but to each their own.

[justincasea]

for example, if you walk in a circle, twisted towards center, in 'ta zhang' (some schools call it something else) - where your hands are palm down at waist height every day for 1 year with proper jin, not just "I'm coordinating breath with movement to feel my qi as I walk like I'm rolling pencils under my feet" circle walking, you'll have some amazing power. Ta zhang is an iron palm exercise...but it only works if you do it correctly for at least an hours a day...not 8 steps x 2 directions.*

Meek,

Finally I see the real thing. "Rolling pencils under my feet" !!!! Cool!
May I ask who your instructor is? Thanks.

Justin
_________________________________________________
I am a raw beginner

[zenshiite]

Didn't this whole art start from "walking meditation"?
The way I understood it, the walking meditation came first, then they added the MA components into THAT practice to come up with what we know as bagua.
DHC: "Teach me how to fight, monk!"
Monk: "Go walk around that tree till you learn something."

that is a common misconception often portrayed from schools that practice empty forms. Circle walking is a physical struggle, difficult to maintain, and is very demanding conditioning. Done correctly you'll develop some mad skillz and power. But if you're just holding your hands in the air wondering if your form looks good you might as well go sit down, you're not utilizing your time efficiently.

the real story is more like:
"teach me how to fight, monk"
"ok, walk around that tree the way I showed you to until your a fucking badass"

for example, if you walk in a circle, twisted towards center, in 'ta zhang' (some schools call it something else) - where your hands are palm down at waist height every day for 1 year with proper jin, not just "I'm coordinating breath with movement to feel my qi as I walk like I'm rolling pencils under my feet" circle walking, you'll have some amazing power. Ta zhang is an iron palm exercise...but it only works if you do it correctly for at least an hours a day...not 8 steps x 2 directions.
Unfortunately most schools teach bagua forms only. that means 8 steps change direction 8 steps change palm. repeat until you've gone through your 8 palm changes. move on to something else...would you like to learn my xing yi now? (little dig at a 'bagua' school in Vancouver) they know bagua forms - they don't know bagua.

there's physical training, and there's meditation. some meditation is standing, some sitting. some is moving. but the palm changes, while having a qi gong effect are conditioning. If you want to do dynamic bagua qi gong, I've got oodles of exercises from our bagua system - none of it even remotely resembles 'bagua'. the focus of circle walking is not qi. if you only think about qi you'll never really get past that.

In the illustrious words of my old bagua shifu who trained bagua and almost nothing but bagua his whole life (since the 1930s - and he's still alive today in his 80s):
"Yang shifu, what about the qi in this posture?"
*smacks your face, hard* "think qi? no real. think jin? have qi naturally. practice jin, qi come. no practice jin, maybe little qi come" *makes hand gesture to symbolize a measurement of 1/2" *

See, now it was my understanding that the Quan Zhen school of Taoism utilized circle walking as a means of meditation combined with chanting a mantra/prayer that, while quite different from Ba Gua Zhang, is likely the foundation of Dong Hai Chuan's inclusion of circle walking into his martial art.

[edededed]

It seems likely that Dong may have learned the circle walking from the daoists in the Baiyunguan (White Cloud Temple) in Beijing (note that this temple is of the Quanzhen sect) - even today, they still practice their archaic version of the circle walk, which seems brisk and light compared to baguazhang's martial version.

[C.J.Wang]

Bottom line: there are people who practice circle walking and obtain great skills, but there are also those who practice it diligently everyday and gain nothing. This is what makes IMA so frustrating sometimes -- due to the number of internal and external components that must be done correctly in order to produce desirable results.

So, unfortunately, time spent and energy invested are not always guarantees for success in the world of Bagua.

As Liu Yun-Chiao poignantly pointed out in one interview, Bagua, unlike Baji, is not a style in which hardwork always pays off.

[zenshiite]

^Hahaha. That's good, because I'm a pretty lazy Ba Gua practitioner....

[meeks]

Finally I see the real thing. "Rolling pencils under my feet" !!!! Cool!
May I ask who your instructor is? Thanks.

umm... did you read that correctly? my point was "it's not about looking like I'm rolling pencils under my feet" like some schools I have been to describe it.
him:"we tell our students to walk like they are rolling pencils under their feet - that way the feet stay flat. That is bagua walking"
me:"umm, no... that is NOT bagua walking. Making a singular circular step does not a bagua step make" (doesn't make it a bagua step). moving your foot flat doesn't make it one either."
him:"I think because you are foreigner you don't understand bagua"
me:"yea - that's got to be it. my, what beautiful high kicks that guy in the silk pajamas over there has...."*pointing in other direction*


to answer your question about my instructor - I'll do better than that - here's my complete lineage:
Cheng Ting Hua->Xu Zhen Biu->Wang Wen Kui->Yang Guo Tai->Dave Meikle

Yang Shifu is in his 80s now. He did xing yi 5 elements from age 8 until 13. just 5 elements over and over and over every day. Then HIS shifu said "get it? good. lets do bagua now." and from age 13 until now (80s) that's pretty much all he's ever trained. I started training with him back in the mid 90s after learning bagua elsewhere, and had my own school. After I met Yang Shifu I closed my school and brought all my students to him. They eventually faded away and left.

I stayed on for quite a few years before he told me to re-open my school and start teaching his bagua, which I did before eventually moving to China for work. I now live in Vancouver, BC, Canada again. wanna be facebook buddies? (just kidding)

[justincasea]

Finally I see the real thing. "Rolling pencils under my feet" !!!! Cool!
May I ask who your instructor is? Thanks.

umm... did you read that correctly? my point was "it's not about looking like I'm rolling pencils under my feet" like some schools I have been to describe it.
him:"we tell our students to walk like they are rolling pencils under their feet - that way the feet stay flat. That is bagua walking"
me:"umm, no... that is NOT bagua walking. Making a singular circular step does not a bagua step make" (doesn't make it a bagua step). moving your foot flat doesn't make it one either."
him:"I think because you are foreigner you don't understand bagua"
me:"yea - that's got to be it. my, what beautiful high kicks that guy in the silk pajamas over there has...."*pointing in other direction*

I misunderstood what you mean. However, you know Bagua well, I am sure you know what I mean. Thanks!

to answer your question about my instructor - I'll do better than that - here's my complete lineage:
Cheng Ting Hua->Xu Zhen Biu->Wang Wen Kui->Yang Guo Tai->Dave Meikle

Yang Shifu is in his 80s now. He did xing yi 5 elements from age 8 until 13. just 5 elements over and over and over every day. Then HIS shifu said "get it? good. lets do bagua now." and from age 13 until now (80s) that's pretty much all he's ever trained. I started training with him back in the mid 90s after learning bagua elsewhere, and had my own school. After I met Yang Shifu I closed my school and brought all my students to him. They eventually faded away and left.

I stayed on for quite a few years before he told me to re-open my school and start teaching his bagua, which I did before eventually moving to China for work. I now live in Vancouver, BC, Canada again. wanna be facebook buddies? (just kidding)

Excellent! a lineage from "Eyeglass Cheng" ! It is nice to meet you. I do not use facebook. However, I plan to visit a few places this fall. Vancouver BC is one of them. If I go there, certainly I would send you a PM and ask for the privilege to visit you and your school at your convenience. Thanks.

[edededed]

Um... Dave, I think you made a little booboo ... should be Cheng Tinghua -> Liu Bin -> Wang Wenkui...

Cool that you used to have a school before meeting Yang Guotai...

[meeks]

whoops - haha....I'll need to check that - haven't talked about background in years, so I'll need to check what role xu zhen biu was - he may just have been one of the badasses that hung out at the school as elder classmates or shifu's classmates to my shifu. Sorry, it's been about 10 years since I've talked about that sort of thing.

heel-no-up - are you reading this thread? little clarification please.

[edededed]

The Liu Bin lineage seems quite "tight," so could be any of many things...