Problems with hardening

[JusticeZero]

As a comment from someone who practices a martial art which uses head butting as a major part of it's arsenal: We don't hit people in the head with our head; we target softer targets like the abdomen or groin; if we do hit the head, it's by striking the jaw, which we accomplish by first striking the sternum, then sliding up.
Your skull just isn't really set up to be used as a striking tool against hard targets.

[BillyK]

You are using your palms I hope and those are only really for the top. Fingertips for the whole face and jaw, light fingers for back of head and into the neck. There's no reason to hit the sides and the only real goal is to hit/tap the different meridians and follow their natural direction of flow- basically top of head 'baihui' area should leave you feeling good and invigorated then go down the face. Most important is doing the paidagong 'opening' patting when you start and for sure always end with the same patting to 'close'. You have to bring everything back to where you started. Patting is actually a very good qigong and a really good way to self treat your own injuries and pain/stagnation but if you hit too hard on any part of the body you will cause stagnation/damage over time. The whole practice stems from watching a mother pat her child's back. Think 'healthy' not 'hardening'.


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ah ok, the opening/closing patting and this theory wasn't mentioned in the books i read, and the meridian tapping was only alluded to. that clears it up, thank you very much.

[Darth Rock&Roll]

Let me get this straight, you're looking for advice on fight conditioning and iron skills?

[Dale Dugas]

Iron Head is not really something anyone wants to try. It is more fiction than anything compared to other Iron Gungs.

Stop hitting your head with anything other than your hands, and lightly.

Bridging and neck exercises can help develop a much better head butt than banging your head.

Stick to Iron Palm and Iron Vest. Iron Head should be left in the silly 72 arts of Shaolin fictional book and left there.

[BillyK]

Let me get this straight, you're looking for advice on fight conditioning and iron skills?

pretty much, yeah.

[shawnsegler]

I've always been against the idea of trying to do any sort of toughing of the head, but from what I've heard from some of the Xinyi Liu He peeps they have methods and such for to learn how to use that area most efficaciously in combat....but I'd really want to be working with some sort of specialt like that if I was going to pursue it. It's like the last thing I'd start practicing after reading about it in a magazine or on the net for exapmle.

Best,

S

[mrtoes]

This isn't really something I have experience of but my vote is in the "head conditioning bad idea" camp. Please take note of what Dale said above he seems to have a good curriculum for body conditioning. Certainly don't go smacking your head without a qualified instructor. If said instructor can still form full sentences then that is a bonus

No way should you be trying to do something from a book that is clearly producing immediate problems. Even if it's legit training without proper supervision you could be creating all sorts of issues down the line by doing things incorrectly. I suspect there is much more productive use of your training time and better areas to condition (body, legs, feet, hands).

Or just go do some boxing - you'll get all the head conditioning you could possibly want

Matthew.

[Ian]

re: hitting the stomach with the head.

who has been knocked down / winded by this?

the head is heavier than the average arm, but it moves much slower and has a larger strike surface area. so if you can take punches to the stomach, what chance does a headbutt have?

btw, I don't agree that you shouldn't hit your opponent's head with your head. what's wrong with a forehead against the nose or temple?

[DaDa]

please refer to Zidane's headbutt. He knocked the opponent off his feet. No damage, really, but it must have hurt like a !@#$^$

[Ian]

yeah but a) professional football players are a bunch of prima donnas who fall down at the lightest tap (they have an incentive to do so, especially in a high-stakes game like the world cup final), and b) I was questioning the effectiveness of a headbutt to the stomach

ps I've been headbutted in the chest by guys heavier and taller than me and honestly it doesn't hurt that much.

[JusticeZero]

re: hitting the stomach with the head.

who has been knocked down / winded by this?

I have; it's not that you're trying to deliver a concussive blow, it's that you are creating a connection through your legs and spine into their abdomen, in order to control and move their center mass. One can, of course, deliver a pretty solid impact in that manner, with properties not dissimilar to a knee strike, another high mass, low velocity, large surface strike. If you deliver such a technique that you create damaging shock, say by striking the sternum as they move toward you, that would be a bonus.
It should be noted that at the same time, your arms are placed well to be mucking with their legs and disrupting their base.

btw, I don't agree that you shouldn't hit your opponent's head with your head. what's wrong with a forehead against the nose or temple?

Too easy for the opponent to turn slightly and present a hard surface, not necessarily even intentionally. Also, if you have an opening to bang them in the face with your head, they have the same, and if they take it, you're going to both hit a hard target. Humans don't have rams horns to be able to absorb the shock of an impact like that; you have maybe a 50/50 chance of returning to consciousness before the other guy in such a case.
The only head butt into the head that I would advize is the one that slides up the ribs to get there.

[DaDa]

This brings a good question to my head.

IF you condition your forehead enough, will you get a slight bump? Will the slight bump be enough to make a headbutt that much more dangerous?
Is there any evidence of this being possible? Yeah?

[Ian]

re: hitting the stomach with the head.

who has been knocked down / winded by this?

One can, of course, deliver a pretty solid impact in that manner, with properties not dissimilar to a knee strike, another high mass, low velocity, large surface strike.

I've been taught to hit with only the tip of the kneecap, which is no larger than a fist. Besides, you can 'pulse' the knee a lot faster than you can move your torso/head, E-Honda style. But as you said, it's not for concussive strikes.

Which, again, makes me question the validity of headbutts to the stomach as a fighting technique. I'll reserve judgement until I can find someone who can do it, but so far, I haven't experienced anything too impressive from this move.

If you deliver such a technique that you create damaging shock, say by striking the sternum as they move toward you, that would be a bonus.

This is an excellent concept, but I'd use the point of my elbow, which at least allows me to cover my head and keep upright.

IMO another problem with headbutts to the stomach is that you're right in your opponent's self-defense arc, he's structurally much stronger and more stable than you, and the back of your neck, kidneys, floating ribs... everything's exposed.

btw, I don't agree that you shouldn't hit your opponent's head with your head. what's wrong with a forehead against the nose or temple?

Too easy for the opponent to turn slightly and present a hard surface, not necessarily even intentionally.

True, but I usually wouldn't headbutt a person without holding them in some way e.g. a clinch. When you decide to move, it should be almost impossible to defend. Just like your pre-emptive face smash, axe hand to the neck, gut punch etc.

Conversely, what's to stop your opponent punching you in the face, as your hands are down by his legs?

Also, if you have an opening to bang them in the face with your head, they have the same, and if they take it, you're going to both hit a hard target.

Yes but reality isn't always like that, right? Two people standing next to each other have a more or less equal opportunity to punch each other, but one person gets the jump.



Headbutt to the face is one of the best tools you could have in your arsenal.

[I-mon]

headbutt to the face (mouth, nose, temple, ear) is great in any sort of close-in situation. if you've trained it enough to have a constant awareness of it as a possibility should an opportunity present itself. doesn't have to be a finisher but a sudden shock from super close range (from a bearhug or clinch or something) is pretty nasty - i've copped a couple and given a couple, seen quite a few more in brazil!

ian the headbutt to the stomach or ribs which justicezero is talking about is more similar mechanically to the shoot than to any other type of martial arts technique.

[JusticeZero]

I'd use the point of my elbow, which at least allows me to cover my head and keep upright.

Using your elbow like that opens you up dangerously to counters; it opens your floating ribs, shoulder, and torso to knee strikes assisted by your own momentum.

another problem with headbutts to the stomach is that.. he's structurally much stronger and more stable than you, and.. everything's exposed.
...I usually wouldn't headbutt a person without holding them in some way e.g. a clinch. When you decide to move, it should be almost impossible to defend.

Double standard much? =)
With a head butt, you use it when their footing is or can be compromised; it is an extremely structurally stable and strong technique - indeed, that's one of the major reasons to do the technique. One can easily take the entire weight of the opponent dropping onto them in that position and be able to roll it away from their center. The position is one that I structurally test by falling onto and rolling off my students, and i'm bigger than they are. The face, front of the torso, and floating ribs are all protected by the hands - if one had tried to elbow, they would probably be open, but i'm not trying to elbow-ram the guy with my armpit hanging open am I? It's a closed shoot with a coiling whip from the ground

Conversely, what's to stop your opponent punching you in the face, as your hands are down by his legs?

Because euclidean geometry doesn't work that way. The back of your head, covered by your shoulders, sure; there's no perfectly defended technique.
Really, I target the abdomen in training to be nice and not break my students. It's just as easy to target the groin with a head butt, or even lower if thy have longish legs and you really wanted to, and that's where I teach for my usual self defense applications.

Also, if you have an opening to bang them in the face with your head, they have the same, and if they take it, you're going to both hit a hard target.

Yes but reality isn't always like that, right?

Except for when it is. Remember, they didn't need to 'get the jump', they just had to see the opening and begin a head knock at any time between you seeing the opening and you making contact for you to both go down. It just seems foolhardy to do a technique that has such a high chance of incapacitating MYSELF in a self defense context.