Getting Behind The Opponent

[Walk the Torque]

A good friend recently asked me what the strategy of bagua is. I think I babbled on about appearing and disappearing, evasive movement and spiraling attacks; but then I remembered one of the main ideas of bagua, which is to get behind the opponent. I realized I had neglected this idea for a very long time because........well to be honest, I could never make it work. My timing, controlling of the opponent and strength of stepping just wasn't at a level that allowed me to get away with it.

So for years I've worked on other stuff and never really pursued trying to fully get behind the opponent. I did learn how to use spinning and stepping to flank and strike, but that is not quite as good as getting right behind someone.

Anyway, I started trying this and for what ever reasons, it is not as hard as it used to be. Once the opponent is locked in the arms or feet, or if they' launch a strong linear attack, I have found it works enough times that it is worth trying to perfect.

Does anyone else have any experiences with this type of attack? What makes it work better or its pit falls. Very interested to hear what people have to say.

Conn

[ashe]

Does anyone else have any experiences with this type of attack? What makes it work better or its pit falls.

1:09

[C.J.Wang]

Getting behind the opponent in Bagua requires excellent shen-fa, footwork, timing, and manipulation/control of the opponent. The key is that instead of doing all the work and trying to move the entire distance to get behind him, you meet him "half way" -- or even less on your part if you are good.

Let's say the distance between the two of you are 4 feet, if he steps in and moves forward 3 feet in an effort to attack, all you need is to move a little more than a foot to get behind him. This is the general idea. In Bagua there are many types of manuver that are designed to let you achieve this. One method, Dai (leading), invovles yanking the opponent and sucking him in toward you as you step forward and turn to get behind. When done right, the opponent would feel you are moving twice as fast as you really are, dazed from getting violently drawn forward, and surprised when realizing he's been struck from behind.

[Ian]

just some fun training http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c58ee95MdDw

[bailewen]

That's a decent example Ashe but I think it only tells half the story. In that clip the guy really sort of turned himself around. He over-commited to the round kick and you entered well thus taking his back. I think for what Conn is talking about you would need to combine that with more active footwork. Speaking Bagua now, if you really pounce with the bagua footwork, you could accomplish what you did in that clip with a much smaller opening. You wouldn't need the other person to really commit to a round kick or a haymaker like that. Just a front kick or right cross should be enough.

Didn't mean to just address this to Ashe, I'm talking about the original post but Ashe's clip is a great jumping off point because I think to get behind someone you really do need to at least partly take advantage of what happened there.

For what it's worth, I've done it plenty in sparring. If you make it a focus it's not as hard as you think. Wrestlers do it all the time. One habit that helps make it happen is if you get used to shooting for the armpit. Really kind of leap through that gap whenever someone attacks with an advancing shuffle. In Ashe's clip, the guy really kind of served up his back on a platter. I watched it a few times to make sure. AFAIK, Ashe didn't really move much. He kind of turned the other guy around which is cool but I didn't see any bagua footwork at work there.

[count]

I wish I had some clips of our combative drills and gauntlets. My favorite drill for this is to have one or more classmates with the body shield pads like these.

trying to knock you down with the pads. It's the footwork that gets you there but if your opponent doesn't want you there, it's not as easy as it sounds. Fun times of heavy endurance training.

[Chris McKinley]

Conn,

In all the years I've been involved in IMA, the only source I've ever heard of for the notion that Bagua seeks to get behind someone is Robert W. Smith in his book, which statement he later admitted was an embellishment based on an admittedly limited understanding of the art at the time that statement was made. I've never heard one single other Baguazhang instructor corroborate the authenticity of that claim. Are you aware of any orthodox literature that backs it up? If so, I'd actually appreciate a reference so that I could read it myself.

That said, there's of course nothing particularly wrong with being able to get behind someone's defenses in a real fight. The problem is, it's a thousand times harder than most other strategies, especially against a skilled fighter. The Baguazhang I'm most fond of has always been every bit as much of the steamroll-right-over-the-SOB variety as anything found in Xingyiquan. IMO, applications which depict the Bagua practitioner circlewalking around an opponent in a fight are all, without exception, not only illegitimate in terms of combat viability, they are also entirely fraudulent.

Apart from grappling which may result in taking the opponent's back, getting to the back of someone in a real fight almost never means actually moving in such a way so that you are now standing behind them. That's dishonestly unrealistic, statistically, against any kind of trained fighter, and even if you momentarily achieve it, they aren't going to give you the time to capitalize on it in any consistently reliable way. People will whirl in place at a remarkably high velocity when they think their lives or limbs are in danger. It's also unnecessary. As mentioned above, footwork, body positioning and good fence work with your upper limbs can achieve the same thing tactically without necessitating that you be able to step around behind the guy.

[Jeice]

Roy Jones Jr was notorious for getting behind southpaws momentarily at the pro level, but then again he's RJJr. Pernell Whitaker was nearly impossible to corner using similar footwork in reverse. I think its something to aspire to in the striking setting. In the grappling setting it's as easy as an armdrag and step, or a clinch duckunder.

[everything]

In the grappling setting it's as easy as an armdrag and step, or a clinch duckunder.

Maybe Cheng having come from grappling was able to incorporate these skills into the bagua footwork and these stories grew from there...?

[C.J.Wang]

IMO, getting behind the opponent is indeed one of the strategies in Bagua, and it ties in with the art's focus on evasion, "avoiding the straight and hitting the slant (Bi Zhen Da Xie)", and obtaining superior angles. However, it's not something that you always try to make happen all the time -- when the opportunity presents itself, it just does.

[D_Glenn]

There are obviously more typical methods of getting to the back side of the opponent like what C.J. mentioned from the 'ping tou zhang' (holding up and lifting strategy) you could use 'dai' (yanking) and 'ling' (leading) to get into 'ban' (moving) where you end up behind them and end up in more of throwing them backward type of situation. Another one that would be more typical is using the 'shun shi zhang' (flowing, following strategy) where you want to smother and be like a constrictor constantly pressing in close in order to get behind for choke type holds. These 2 would be like Chris M mentioned of being like grappling and taking the opponent's back.
The classical way that bagua disappears and ends up behind comes from the 'wo bu zhang' (crouching step strategy) that uses long low steps similar to a bow and arrow stance combined with a whole body 'shan' (dodging) that uses attacks with the arms in a disconnected from the dantian 'shenfa' (Li trigram empty in the middle) in order to distract to the right and disappear to the left with the stepping. Not too many styles have this shenfa correct so it's rare but I've been a victim of it and it is indeed something real and achievable although even in our line it's considered a difficult strategy and shenfa that requires a lot of work. It needs to be a powered and commited attack that the opponent defends against but finds nothing behind it as the dantian is moving with the 'wo bu' crouching step of the legs.


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[Walk the Torque]

Thanks for the response fellas,

Chris,
You've put me on the spot now!
The book you cited did make mention of it yes, but I'm sure I remember one of my teachers, who had studied with Rose Lee in London, telling me that as a child she had met practitioners such as Sun Lu Tang and tried using her Hsing Yi to attack him but always found him behind her.

This of course is anecdotal, and comes third hand so I can understand your skepticism. I could also except that the concept of getting behind the opponent is the equivalent of an old wives tale; if it wasn't for the fact that the training lends itself to developing this skill, what with the footwork and all. There is also the argument that because out flanking an opponent is a such a large part of the bagua gameplan, that getting behind is only (forgive the pun) a small step to make.

I get your point about people flailing around if they are caught with someone behind them, but I have also witnessed people in a state of momentary paralyzed confusion when this strategy is used; and just for the sake of argument (its a slow day at work ), I don't agree that this definitely wouldn't work in a "real fight". A fully committed attack has an aspect to it that (if timed correctly) is perfect for this type of thing, and also spinning, body sticking and tying up opponents. Are they easy to pull off? not really, but they can be very effective when you do.

The down side as I see it is that as a technique, it must be used sparingly. If your opponent has any type of savvy, it will become predictable very quickly. But that could be said for a great many things.

As a side note, switching tact is a large part of the appeal that bagua holds for me. Sometimes straight sometimes squirly! Getting behind someone is quite rewarding IME because it opens a lot of avenues that otherwise wouldn't be there.

[leopard]

Changing the line of engagement or angle of attack/defense until taking control and capitalizing makes sense to me. Attempting to move around behind others normally does not make as much sense to me per some of the things that Chris and Glenn mentioned above. Ending up behind others definitely happens but it's usually due to choke attempts, taking someone's back, or if an oponent is silly enough to spin and strike (elbows, kicks, backfists) without controlling their opponent's center.