Wen county named the official birthplace of TJQ

[GrahamB]

http://wulinmingshi.wordpress.com/2009/ ... ver-taiji/

Ok! Now we can all stop arguing about this - it's official!

[RobP2]

"So now we know where, but do we know when? "

"Ah yes, it is wen"

"OK, fine but where?"

"Wen!"

"No, I want to know where!"

"Who's on first?"

[Adam S]

"In 1927, the outstanding Chen style master Chen Zhaopi set up a Leitai (traditionally, a ring for kungfu challenge matches) in Beijing, going 17 days undefeated, a feat which caused uproar in Beijing. From then on, the fame of Chen style taiji spread far and wide"

Always heard this about CFK not CZP.......can anyone clarify??

[yusuf]

..yeah but everyone knows i invented tai chi whilst taking a break from pushing clouds around

[canard]

"So now we know where, but do we know when? "

"Ah yes, it is wen"

"OK, fine but where?"

"Wen!"

"No, I want to know where!"

"Who's on first?"

"I don't give a darn!"

[justincasea]

"In 1927, the outstanding Chen style master Chen Zhaopi set up a Leitai (traditionally, a ring for kungfu challenge matches) in Beijing, going 17 days undefeated, a feat which caused uproar in Beijing. From then on, the fame of Chen style taiji spread far and wide"

Always heard this about CFK not CZP.......can anyone clarify??

"Chen the peerless" in making )) I head this while hanging out in Beijing 2000 with a few farmers from Chen village. Well, 1927 was a time before Japanese invasion, there were a lot of highly reputated martial artists in Beijing and Tianjin. CFK or CZP should have made himself a big name in Beijing. Such an event should have been able to find in old newspaper. However, in Beijing folk maritial artist community, neither CFK or CZP are known for being a first rate maritial martist at that time. Next time, if someone told me this story, I would like to know where CZp had gone after the 17 days.

[Darth Rock&Roll]

It's not about accolades, it's about blame.

[Adam S]

"neither CFK or CZP are known for being a first rate maritial martist at that time"

Justincasea are you sure about that...........
Or is this another statement your gonna have to eat 'humble pie' over..............

One would wonder how CFK got his 'Title' if your statement was true............................................

[Wanderingdragon]

"So now we know where, but do we know when? "

"Ah yes, it is wen"

"OK, fine but where?"

"Wen!"

"No, I want to know where!"

"Who's on first?"

"I don't give a darn!"

no no no! Darn gave it to Where in Wen, But Who was first to study Chen in Wen... I Don't know

[justincasea]

"neither CFK or CZP are known for being a first rate maritial martist at that time"

Justincasea are you sure about that...........
Or is this another statement your gonna have to eat 'humble pie' over..............

One would wonder how CFK got his 'Title' if your statement was true............................................

Humble pie? Hahhaha. At least I know what kind of pie I am eating. I like to respect those who are older than I am becaue I enjoy such happy pies in Chinese culture.

May I humbly ask you, " what "title" of CFK are you talking about? "

When we talk about first rate martial artists during that period, here is a short/long list:
1929 Hangzhou Leitai Tournament judges
Li Jinglin, Head Judge, (master of Wudang sword)
Sun Lutang, Vice-Chairman of Judging Committee
Liu Baichuan, (master of northern Shaolin, famous for his kicks)
Du Xinwu, (master of the Ziranmen [Natural Gate] school)
Yang Chengfu, (Yang style taijiquan)
Jiang Xinshan, (cousin of Li Jinglin, bagua student of Cheng Tinghua’s son Cheng Haiting)
Zhang Zhaodong, (xingyi/bagua)
Shang Yunxiang (xingyi, student of Li cunyi)
Liu Caichen (studied taiji from Quan You, xingyi from famous master Geng Jishan)
Huang Bonian (bagua)
Han Huachen (famous master of bajiquan)
Ma Yutang (xingyi, student of Li Cunyi)
Han??, the best security guard (thr-emporial paocui), Zhang San, the most fearsome shaolin martial artist in Beijing was still in Beijing at that time, how about Wang X Z (Yi Quan)?

Can CFK be on the par with these guys?

It is history, we cannot be 100% sure. but we can do some reasonable guess. One way to compare an martial artist is by looking at his disciples and associates. For examples, many powerful/super rich persons would like to be disciples of "drunken" ZHang San in name because they knew his marital skills had shock and awe power in the society. They paid to be disciples just to show they had the best on their sides. Another example, Sun LT and Zhang Ce and Yang Chengfu became "brothers", which means they accepted each other as equal in marital arts. Tell me where CFK stands ? Just like modern days USA, a star in Hollywood or sports are highly sought by the rich and the powerful. CFK should have his share of that, right?

Of course, CFK was a great martial artist, we have no doubt about that; otherwise he could not have made it in Beijing. First rate or not is subjective. If you think he was first rate. Let him be. You can believe what you like to believe, it is a religion. I believe mine. A Humble pie most likely tastes better than a regretful pie!

[Andy_S]

I have heard that it was Zhaopei not Fake who set up a leitei in Beijing.

He was subsequently invited to teach in Nanking - which is why he invited Fake (who he considered the top man in the village at the time) to teach in Beijing. Which he did ... and the rest is history.

I have never heard of Chen Fake not being top drawer simply on the basis of him not being on the staff of the Nanjing Kuoshu Institute.

The problem with Zhaopei is that his trail runs dry in Nanking. I have never heard of who he taught there or what.

[Andy_S]

SNIP
Tell me where CFK stands ? Just like modern days USA, a star in Hollywood or sports are highly sought by the rich and the powerful. CFK should have his share of that, right?
SNIP

"Just like in the modern USA..." - you are comparing apples and oranges.

China in the early 20th century was a society in a state of flux. In the past, the elite had focussed on scholarly, not martial skills; MA was looked down upon as an activity for ruffians, soldiers and criminals. But things were changing. China's disastrous military performance and being branded "the sick man of Asia" was generating new interest in physical culture. There were also many who were looking for a particularly Chinese physical culture - the Nanjing instittue is an outgrowth of this interest. So in the early days of the republic, the elite took up Taijiquan. Why? It was one CMA that was seen as being representative of Chinese philosophy and aesthetics, had all sorts of claims of Taoist alchemical benefits, mystical antecendents, qi nurturing, etc - but perhaps most importantly, It was a gentleman's art - not too much huffing, puffing and sweating. It seems pretty clear to me (though is fiercely argued over today) that the generation of Yang Cheng-fu removed much of the gongfu from the art in order for this class to learn it.

Enter Chen Fa-ke.

He had no background in the philosophy of the art; he was a bumpkin from a nowhere village in central Henan. He was known as being a fighter - he had famously killed a bandit outside Wenxian with a staff (In the 1950s, in the new China, he was apparently questioned over this homicide) and in Beijing, was matched against a famous wrestler (I don't recall his name; it is in the lit). His art, we know from people like Feng Ziqiang, was physically very demanding.

Would ths peasant art grab the attention of the perfumed elite? I think not.

The only members of the "elite" (if you want to call them that) who retained MArtsits for their original purpose (ie as fighters) were warlords. And Chen Fa-ke was, indeed, forcibly enlisted by a Henan warlord against his will: (We have the famous story of him kicking a sabre out of the hand of the warlord's MA instructor).

I am not sure if the Yang Cheng-fu, Sun Lu-tang and other maestros on the sophisticated Beijing scene had this kind of experience.

I think many, many of the problems/conflicts afflicting Taiji today are down to this seperation of the art as it was taught to the elite in Beijing, and as it was taught to rougher characters in the provinces.

In one corner we have the art of the literati: heavy on philiosophy, qi practices, and very, very gentle in PH. In hte other, we have the Henan arts (Chen and Zhaobao: little philosophical talk, not much in the way of specific qi practices, but athletic in execution and rough in the PH). Then you have some arts (eg the Wu lineages in Hong Kong and Shanghai) which fall somewhere in between.

[justincasea]

SNIP
Tell me where CFK stands ? Just like modern days USA, a star in Hollywood or sports are highly sought by the rich and the powerful. CFK should have his share of that, right?
SNIP

"Just like in the modern USA..." - you are comparing apples and oranges.

China in the early 20th century was a society in a state of flux. In the past, the elite had focussed on scholarly, not martial skills; MA was looked down upon as an activity for ruffians, soldiers and criminals. But things were changing. China's disastrous military performance and being branded "the sick man of Asia" was generating new interest in physical culture. There were also many who were looking for a particularly Chinese physical culture - the Nanjing instittue is an outgrowth of this interest. So in the early days of the republic, the elite took up Taijiquan. Why? It was one CMA that was seen as being representative of Chinese philosophy and aesthetics, had all sorts of claims of Taoist alchemical benefits, mystical antecendents, qi nurturing, etc - but perhaps most importantly, It was a gentleman's art - not too much huffing, puffing and sweating. It seems pretty clear to me (though is fiercely argued over today) that the generation of Yang Cheng-fu removed much of the gongfu from the art in order for this class to learn it..

Here is the apple: Between scholarly and martial skills, there is a saying in China : "穷文富武“。 if you do not understand Chinese, please ask your Chinese friends who are reasonably educated. In the old time, kids from poor family could only pursue scholarly because hiring someone understand chinese language in writing and reading is cheaper than hiring a martial art teacher for years. However, scholarly pursuit was painstakinglt challenging, one had to pass a lot of exams along the way. A kid from rich family would rather go for martial skills because that skills can easily get him a position with authority/emperor in military or "rule enforcement"(like police etc). In fact , people with martial skills were well treated. Tian XC, one of Chen Fake 's disciple, was born in family that owned a few retail stores. Tian's two or three nephews are teaching Chen Taiji in Beijing now, Just ask them how much his uncle's family had paid Chen Fake at that time as tuition.

Here is the orange: In Hollywood, children from families of entertainment business seem to continue the profession of their parents. Rather than going to top univ to have master or pHd degrees, they attend acting classes and voice training instead. Then end result: we have second generation of movie stars, third generation movie stars with fame and $$$$.

AFAIK,Yang Cheng Fu was not the only person in Yang Family who had even taught Taiji. His grandpa, his uncle, his father, his brothers, all had disciples. I do not understand your point here. Just to be clear, my taiji lineage is not from Yang Chengfu.

The reason i have to cut off this "debate" is I do not think it goes any where. If you bring what you post here to talk to those folk martial artist in Beijing and Shanghai, you will meet with a lot of polite smiles.

[Adam S]

I have heard that it was Zhaopei not Fake who set up a leitei in Beijing.

Andy thanks for the clarification
Had heard he was highly regarded but not about the Leitei
Definitely had heard that CFK took 17 days of challenges after coming to Beijing in 1928

[Adam S]

Can CFK be on the par with these guys?

Yes

May I humbly ask you, " what "title" of CFK are you talking about? "

If you dont know that, I'd politely suggest you dont get involved with discussions on Chenshi Taijiquan