Wen county named the official birthplace of TJQ

[justincasea]

[

quote="Adam S"]

Can CFK be on the par with these guys?

Yes

NO, CFK is certainly better than those guys. Andy, do i get another humbly pie?

May I humbly ask you, " what "title" of CFK are you talking about? "

If you dont know that, I'd politely suggest you dont get involved with discussions on Chenshi Taijiquan [/quote]

In MMA, we have "spider" Iceman"... Nickname are not meant to be taken seriously. Cui Yishi, Yang Chenfu's student, had a nickname of " the ruler of hell"(Cui Yan Wang). Does this nickname or title mean he was the most fearsome marital artist at that time?

I know CFK had a nickename"Mr.paiwei". I do not know he had a title through some sort of competition or given by reputable folk martial art org. So I would politely ask you to show us his title, Please.

If you do not have anything else to show, ... I would politely ask you to continue get involved with discussions on Chenshi Taiji Quan. Why would i want to stop anyone from talking about taijiquan? I have friends who are very good Chen Taiji practitioners but they do not try to give out humble pies

[martialartist]

the interesting trend i see is this, there are many "martial artists" who simply talk about how great their grand-teacher was, or how great another famous martial artist is... but what do they have themselves?

[Daniel]

http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/taiji/chenfake1.html

http://www.chinafrominside.com/ma/taiji ... .html#CHEN FAKE

http://www.geocities.com/blvovsky/ChenF ... ctor1.html

http://wuyuan.de/en/wude/index.html


D.

Sarcasm. Oh yeah, like that´ll work.

[shawnsegler]

Hehe...

S- gives the golfclap

[Daniel]

Oh sorry, I forgot this one in my last post.

http://wuyuan.de/en/wude/index.html


D.

Sarcasm. Oh yeah, like that´ll work.

[Andy_S]

SNIP
Here is the apple: Between scholarly and martial skills, there is a saying in China : "穷文富武“。 if you do not understand Chinese, please ask your Chinese friends who are reasonably educated.
SNIP

How about you just translating it?

This attitude ("Find someone who speaks Chinese to translate what I have written for you") is unwelcome - indeed, arrogant ("who are reasonably educated") - on an English language forum dealing with CMA.

SNIP
In the old time, kids from poor family could only pursue scholarly because hiring someone understand chinese language in writing and reading is cheaper than hiring a martial art teacher for years. However, scholarly pursuit was painstakinglt challenging, one had to pass a lot of exams along the way. A kid from rich family would rather go for martial skills because that skills can easily get him a position with authority/emperor in military or "rule enforcement"(like police etc).
SNIP

We do paint with broad brush strokes, don't we?

But are we talking Chinese social history here or kung fu theater? Please.

How respected was the soldiery in late Qing and early Republican-era China? Little better than criminals. Read some of the reports on how appallingly Chinese soldiers were treated by their own commanders (!) in the anti-Japanese struggle and the civil war. Likewise, how respected a profession was the "police force?" (What police force was this, BTW?)

How many children of the elite took up these professions - or seriously studied martial arts, eh?

The literary exams, on the other hand, opened up all kinds of opportunites in the civil service. That was where the money was, and that was where the social respect was.

SNIP
In fact , people with martial skills were well treated. Tian XC, one of Chen Fake 's disciple, was born in family that owned a few retail stores. Tian's two or three nephews are teaching Chen Taiji in Beijing now, Just ask them how much his uncle's family had paid Chen Fake at that time as tuition.
SNIP

Sounds like Tian's family were members of a minor merchant clan. This is not the "rich or powerful" in Chinese society. Name some members of those who were really rich and powerful - Chiang Kai-shek's entourage; the Soong clan, etc - who seriously or rigorously trained CMA.

And yet another question. How many CMA masters made real money and lived a comfortable life - compared to those who lived an itinerant, threadbare existence?

After the farce of the Boxer Rebellion (and, indeed, prior to it) how respected was the MA teacher in Chinese culture in late Qing and early republic?

SNIP
AFAIK,Yang Cheng Fu was not the only person in Yang Family who had even taught Taiji. His grandpa, his uncle, his father, his brothers, all had disciples. I do not understand your point here. Just to be clear, my taiji lineage is not from Yang Chengfu.
SNIP

Yang Cheng-fu taught a lot of the elite. (Cheng Man-ching, of course, being one) Virtually all oral history and literature makes the point that his grandfather, father and uncles taught a much harsher fighting art - which was not nearly as widely disseminated today as his art. What percentage of the Yang style Taiji that we have today comes from Yang Cheng-fu?

Did Yang CF teach some men who were serious fighters? Very possibly.
Were they the bulk of his students? No.
Is martial still widely reflected in Yang' Cheng-fu's lineage today? No.

SNIP
The reason i have to cut off this "debate" is I do not think it goes any where.
SNIP

You are not cutting off this debate - you seem very happy to continue commenting.

SNIP
If you bring what you post here to talk to those folk martial artist in Beijing and Shanghai, you will meet with a lot of polite smiles
SNIP

Oh, well that's nice to know. And their opinion is...?

[martialartist]

Did Yang CF teach some men who were serious fighters? Very possibly.
Were they the bulk of his students? No.
Is martial still widely reflected in Yang' Cheng-fu's lineage today? No.

Did Chen's martial art become famous because of Yang Lu Chan?

[Bhassler]

Here is the orange: In Hollywood, children from families of entertainment business seem to continue the profession of their parents. Rather than going to top univ to have master or pHd degrees, they attend acting classes and voice training instead. Then end result: we have second generation of movie stars, third generation movie stars with fame and $$$$.

The Hollywood analogy is an interesting one. Saying that Yang Lu Chan or Sun Lu Tang were great based on their social and political connections is similar to saying that the best paid performers are the best at acting, singing, or whatever. Kevin Costner and Keanu Reeves both made millions of dollars and can't act for shit. Is Britney Spears the best singer? Madonna went to do a stage show on Broadway and was terrible-- rock and roll is not the same kind of singing. Michael Bay is somehow still allowed to make movies. Fear and greed are powerful motivators. It's very difficult to do something different in show business because no one is willing to put their ass and their paychecks on the line to take a risk. Madoff was not a good investor, just a charming liar, and for a long time he was THE guy to trust your money with.

History should continually be questioned, just like any other scientific endeavor. Just because something is widely believed to be true doesn't make it so. Historians for centuries have thought that ancient seafaring people stayed close to shore, while sailors who had been across the oceans knew from what they saw that people had been going far out to sea forever, and they also knew that staying close to shore was far more dangerous than going out to the deep blue yonder. Only recently have the so-called academic authorities begun to discover the archaeological evidence to suggest what sailors have known all along. Research and hypothesis are great for adding color and flavor to the experience of life, but should never be mistaken for the experience of life itself. Experience combined with reason should always trump speculative or even authoritative research.

[cdobe]

Did Chen's martial art become famous because of Yang Lu Chan?

Chen's martial art became famous in Beijing because of the stage set by the prowess of Yang Luchan and the high-level socioeconomic connections cultivated by YLC, his sons and his grandson Yang Cheng Fu.

I've always been curious about the coincidence in time between Yang Cheng Fu's (and Wu Jianquan's) departure for points south (e.g., Shanghai) and the arrival in Beijing (ca. 1927/28) of Chen Fake.

Well, either they went to the south, where the Kuomintang, whom they were politically affiliated with, formed a strong base during the 1920s, a period of many disorders and conflicts, or they hastily fled the scene from an arriving bumpkin, because they feared his gongfu so much. Maybe Wu Jianquan realized that he couldn't stand a chance with his problem of doubleweighting, that he just couldn't figure out how to eliminiate...

[bailewen]

SNIP
Here is the apple: Between scholarly and martial skills, there is a saying in China : "穷文富武“。 if you do not understand Chinese, please ask your Chinese friends who are reasonably educated.

Since Justin is being an arrogant prick in this case, I'll translate, it just means "good at martial arts but not very literate"

In the old time, kids from poor family could only pursue scholarly because hiring someone understand chinese language in writing and reading is cheaper than hiring a martial art teacher for years. However, scholarly pursuit was painstaking. lt challenging, one had to pass a lot of exams along the way. A kid from rich family would rather go for martial skills because that skills can easily get him a position with authority/emperor in military or "rule enforcement"(like police etc).

I call total bullshit on this one.

Martial skills have NEVER been valued anything close to literary one's in Chinese culture. Kids from poor family would not pursue scholar stuff because it was cheaper. That's insanse. They'd pursue scholary stuff because since the Qin dynasty (roughly 2000 years ago) all the way until the 20th century, you could win a government position and immediately be raised from peasant class to government official just by passing an exam. There's nothing even close to equivalent for martial achievement.

Let's also look at this ridiculous list:

1929 Hangzhou Leitai Tournament judges
Li Jinglin, Head Judge, (master of Wudang sword)
Sun Lutang, Vice-Chairman of Judging Committee
Liu Baichuan, (master of northern Shaolin, famous for his kicks)
Du Xinwu, (master of the Ziranmen [Natural Gate] school)
Yang Chengfu, (Yang style taijiquan)
Jiang Xinshan, (cousin of Li Jinglin, bagua student of Cheng Tinghua’s son Cheng Haiting)
Zhang Zhaodong, (xingyi/bagua)
Shang Yunxiang (xingyi, student of Li cunyi)
Liu Caichen (studied taiji from Quan You, xingyi from famous master Geng Jishan)
Huang Bonian (bagua)
Han Huachen (famous master of bajiquan)
Ma Yutang (xingyi, student of Li Cunyi)
Han??, the best security guard (thr-emporial paocui), Zhang San, the most fearsome shaolin martial artist in Beijing was still in Beijing at that time, how about Wang X Z (Yi Quan)?

Can CFK be on the par with these guys?

Just for starters, aside from the ridiculousness of using it as some sort of a gold standard,

Yang Cheng-fu - Common knowledge that he was not the best of his time. He did not train seriously until later in life and had to go to his kung fu brothers to make up for what he did not take advantage of when his grandfather was alive. Superb skill but hardly the best.
Han Hua-chen - How can you claim he was the best when his own Shifu, Li "The Spear God" Shu-wen hadn't passed away yet. How about his brother Zhang Xiang-wu, conspicuously absent from the list as he was the vice dean of the whole shibang.
Li Jing-lin speaking of Zhang Xiang-wu, who do you think introduced Li Jing-lin to his Wudang sword teacher? But since he's not on the list he must not be as good...even though he was his senior brother.

Did Yang CF teach some men who were serious fighters? Very possibly.
Were they the bulk of his students? No.
Is martial still widely reflected in Yang' Cheng-fu's lineage today? No.

Did Chen's martial art become famous because of Yang Lu Chan?

Arguable it became famous because of Yang Cheng-fu.

[Andy_S]

Thanks Omar.

RE:
I call total bullshit on this one.

Exactly. I was being polite, but with this particular poster I don't think that is necessary any longer.

[justincasea]

I call total bullshit on this one too. Omar, you might want to check with your Chinese langauge teacher on your translation. you seem to be too confident with your Chinese language and social/history.

[Daniel]

Gosh darn, what do you know, I was going to put this link into my last post, and simply forgot. Again.

http://wuyuan.de/en/wude/index.html


D.

Sarcasm. Oh yeah, like that´ll work.

[Bhassler]

I call total bullshit on this one too. Omar, you might want to check with your Chinese langauge teacher on your translation. you seem to be too confident with your Chinese language and social/history.

If your purpose here is to accomplish anything other than trolling, I suggest you pause for a moment and reconsider how you present yourself and your comments-- whatever information of value you may posses is being completely lost in what is being interpreted as meaningless and insulting comments made without substantiation. I don't mean this as an attack, I just want to point out how I and probably many others are interpreting your posts. Maybe it's language, or maybe it's just general communication issues of the sort that happen online all the time. Either way, I would suggest that if you want to avoid being labeled as a troll and harassed mercilessly for the rest of your time on RSF, now is the time to make a change.

[bailewen]

Sorry Justincasea, no language teacher to check with. I'm just fine on my own.

Unless you actually have something specific you think I got wrong, then help yourself to a large cold glass of STFU.

This last post of yours is just an ad hominem with nothing specific. I will say though, even though you were unable to come up with anything yourself, I took another look at that last phrase, 观耄耋御众之形，快何能为。

When you originally said I got it wrong I was thinking that at the very least you did pick the one phrase in the translation that I wasn't 100% sure of but when you failed to suggest anything yourself I decided you were just being an ass. Nevertheless, being a stuffed shirt does not mean you are wrong and like I said, I already wasn't really that satisfied with that phrase. Just talked it over with my wife who also couldn't tell what it meant at first (despite being Chinese herself) but after a little discussion she pointed out that it appeared to be a contrast with the previous phrase, 非关学力而有为也。察四两拨千斤之句，显非力胜. In that context, rather than "When you look at people as they age, they lose their speed" I would change it to "When you look at older martial artists, one's who have practiced for many decades, where do you see a reliance on speed?"

But you still an ass.