ultra-relaxed taiji. (ben lo?)

[ninepalace]

was it someone here who posted that they felt ben lo's calf while he was doing the form and that it was exceedingly soft?

bob smith says of everyone he's done tui shou with there's only two he couldn't push ever, cheng man ch'ing and ben lo.

anyone have any training gems they've acquired from this man?

[Formosa Neijia]

was it someone here who posted that they felt ben lo's calf while he was doing the form and that it was exceedingly soft?

It's interesting that you mention this. T.T. Liang has it in his book where he went to meet a supposed hermit with awesome taiji. The hermit had Liang hold a stance, felt that his calf was hard, and then said Liang had a long way to go.

I never understood that until I got a heel spur from overtraining. Boy do I understand it now. Having soft calves and a soft body is definitely one of the by-products, or perhaps even a goal, of taiji training, at least as I train it now.

Dave C.

[ninepalace]

It's interesting that you mention this. T.T. Liang has it in his book where he went to meet a supposed hermit with awesome taiji. The hermit had Liang hold a stance, felt that his calf was hard, and then said Liang had a long way to go.

i read that too. what's also interesting is that, if i recall correctly, after meeting that hermit, ben felt cheng man ch'ing's leg in that same golden rooster posture and it was "wood" just like his.

so ben being able to maintain a soft calf while doing the form seems off the hook.

[maxashton]

Potentially understated question: How is this achieved?
I've heard this mentioned, and I'm always encouraged to relax during forms and zz, but how is this level of relaxation in posture achieved?

[ninepalace]

Potentially understated question: How is this achieved?
I've heard this mentioned, and I'm always encouraged to relax during forms and zz, but how is this level of relaxation in posture achieved?

it's gotta be an issue of balance, no? i mean, if your standing w/ the calf muscles barely engaged, the only thing fighting gravity must be your bones.

now that i think about it, one of my taiji teachers always talked about standing in "bone line balance". hmmm...

[maxashton]

I suppose logically thinking it has to be. I read an article a few days ago about zz being to condition the autonomous musculature that controls balance into being faster and stronger. Do you think that meshes with the bones idea?

[Formosa Neijia]

Potentially understated question: How is this achieved?
I've heard this mentioned, and I'm always encouraged to relax during forms and zz, but how is this level of relaxation in posture achieved?

It's interesting that this comes up now because I just asked Chen Yun-ching about it today. He suggested it was just a by product of correct training. In my case, it's also a matter of a LOT of stretching. It's the only thing that keeps the pain at bay. Softening those calves is a must.

Dave C.

[jkuo]

I suppose logically thinking it has to be. I read an article a few days ago about zz being to condition the autonomous musculature that controls balance into being faster and stronger. Do you think that meshes with the bones idea?

Where did you read about ZZ being about conditioning autonomous muscalture? I don't think that's its primary training purpose. If that were the case, you'd probably get better and faster results standing on a bosu ball.

ZZ (from my skewed, biased perspective) is about developing and refining body awareness and body control. A stationary stance allows you to feel how you use your body to control your balance and structure. In this simple training framework, you don't have to worry about the complexities that arise during motion, so you can really focus your attention on all the details of all the parts of your body. It's a way of developing awareness of how to control and arrange your structure so that you can bear your weight primarily through the body structure (bones, ligaments, and tendons) while leaving your muscles relaxed and free for movement, power generation, etc.

[qiphlow]

ZZ (from my skewed, biased perspective) is about developing and refining body awareness and body control. A stationary stance allows you to feel how you use your body to control your balance and structure. In this simple training framework, you don't have to worry about the complexities that arise during motion, so you can really focus your attention on all the details of all the parts of your body. It's a way of developing awareness of how to control and arrange your structure so that you can bear your weight primarily through the body structure (bones, ligaments, and tendons) while leaving your muscles relaxed and free for movement, power generation, etc.

+1

[maxashton]

Here's the article i read: http://www.yiquan.org.uk/art-zz.html

Perhaps i misunderstood, i am but a newbie.

[neijia_boxer]

here is from a guy who studied with CMC in Hawaii-

Here is perhaps some food for thought on the topic 'relaxed vs.
contracted' muscles.

Ben Lo, who learned directly from Professor Cheng, would demonstrate
to students his ability to withstand the push of 3 or 4 students
against his ward-off posture. At the same time he asked watching
students to test his arm and his leg muscles to see if they were
contracted. Amazingly they were as loose as if he was sitting in a
chair. Ben then explained this is the result of years of the
cultivation of chi.

[TaoJoannes]

I suppose logically thinking it has to be. I read an article a few days ago about zz being to condition the autonomous musculature that controls balance into being faster and stronger. Do you think that meshes with the bones idea?

Where did you read about ZZ being about conditioning autonomous muscalture? I don't think that's its primary training purpose. If that were the case, you'd probably get better and faster results standing on a bosu ball.

Or what about doing ZZ on a bosu?

Or better yet, the stationary elements.

[shawnsegler]

It would be too easy...

S

[shawnsegler]

I was just going to plug the old pacific rim. Who could deny me that?



S- king of the teenagers

[maxashton]

My kitten-fu is already strong. Excuse me, i must take a power nap.
Now i remember why i liked this forum.