ultra-relaxed taiji. (ben lo?)

[Bob]

I understand that Ben Lo advocated the holding of postures as part of the training. Perhaps that is one of the keys.

[Formosa Neijia]

I understand that Ben Lo advocated the holding of postures as part of the training. Perhaps that is one of the keys.

Interestingly, that is what ruined me. I'm finding that the other parts of my training are more conducive to building the softness, but not the standing. Standing makes me very...um...tree-like.

Dave C.

[Martin]

Here is the blog of a chap whose principal teacher is Ben Lo.... the link courtesy of Tom

http://cattanga.typepad.com/

[jjy5016]

A buddy of mine is an associate /quasi student of Ben Lo and claims that CMC had Lo do a rigorous standing regimen.
Cheng is also said to have done standing until he could stand no more. Not sure if it was just postures from the taiji form or more traditional zhuangs. Nevertheless I believe that this contributes to the ability to relax the muscles and still have the strong frame.

I've done zhan zhuang for many years and if I do the "rooster" posture the calf on the weight bearing leg is almost as soft as the one suspended in air. I would say that the ability comes from the strength of the tendons, connective tissue etc. which is developed doing standing practice.

Last November I was pushing a guy who really impressed me. I could not get his center to uproot him with a slow, steady push . This was very unusual for me. Different types of pushes yielded different results but I was still impressed. He confided in me that it was from reading "Warriors of Stillness, Vol I" and doing the exercises and wuji standing as described in the book. He read it & re - read it and absorbed the principles into his own practice.

FWIW

John

Oh yeah, that blog that Martin posted the link to has some interesting writings. Especially on the pearl neckace, which is a variation of my specialty:

The flying string of pearls technique.

[ninepalace]

Oh yeah, that blog that Martin posted the link to has some interesting writings. Especially on the pearl neckace, which is a variation of my specialty:

The flying string of pearls technique.

your specialty, huh? which bathhouse is your favorite to train at?

[jjy5016]

Never been to one. Perhaps you can recommend one on your list.

[ninepalace]

Interestingly, that is what ruined me. I'm finding that the other parts of my training are more conducive to building the softness, but not the standing. Standing makes me very...um...tree-like.

huh, i experience the opposite. so what are these things more conducive to softness?

my CMC teacher is VERY good at SOFT push hands. when i push with him i basically feel only his arm hairs and he makes me stand on marbles no problem. he believes in standing in postures (like peng) to get a strong root which he says is essential for neutralizing.

a lot of people think they are soft who aren't. at a henry wang seminar i push hands w/ one of yang jun's students and he felt surprisingly stiff. henry told him so and the guy said, "really? people usually say i'm too soft."

[LaPointe]

maybe you haven't done enough standing? i mean, i can't say anything since i haven't even achieved a "good" amount of softness after 6 years of training. i do know that usually after doing my normal amount of standing i feel like i should be doing more. it's hard to get your chi to start your hands 'amoving even though that's what the masters say should happen at the start of your taiji forms. my energy wants my body to stay "still".

more than anything, i want to bump this thread because it's cool

www.centerstatestaichi.com

[Formosa Neijia]

huh, i experience the opposite. so what are these things more conducive to softness?

my CMC teacher is VERY good at SOFT push hands. when i push with him i basically feel only his arm hairs and he makes me stand on marbles no problem. he believes in standing in postures (like peng) to get a strong root which he says is essential for neutralizing.

It's funny you asked that. The softest person I know, who also has the ability that you mention in the second part above, trains very differently from Ben Lo. He's doesn't do much standing. He trains taiji daoyin -- a type of dynamic stretching that is derived from huleijia taiji. I find that type of work much more conducive to the relaxation when combined with form work than ZZ.

Dave C.

[I-mon]

A buddy of mine is an associate /quasi student of Ben Lo and claims that CMC had Lo do a rigorous standing regimen.
Cheng is also said to have done standing until he could stand no more. Not sure if it was just postures from the taiji form or more traditional zhuangs. Nevertheless I believe that this contributes to the ability to relax the muscles and still have the strong frame.

I've done zhan zhuang for many years and if I do the "rooster" posture the calf on the weight bearing leg is almost as soft as the one suspended in air. I would say that the ability comes from the strength of the tendons, connective tissue etc. which is developed doing standing practice.

Last November I was pushing a guy who really impressed me. I could not get his center to uproot him with a slow, steady push . This was very unusual for me. Different types of pushes yielded different results but I was still impressed. He confided in me that it was from reading "Warriors of Stillness, Vol I" and doing the exercises and wuji standing as described in the book. He read it & re - read it and absorbed the principles into his own practice.

Cai Song Fang (the teacher whose methods are outlined in warriors of stillness vol 1) is by far the softest person i've felt. all i could ever feel of him was the lightest touch at the contact points, and he could redirect my force away from him into empty space without me feeling any change in his touch, no pressure, nothing. even if i pushed fast or super slow, i couldn't feel him doing anything, but i always ended up moving into the empty space to either side of him. it was very weird.

he was old and getting quite frail though, so i never tried to push him hard or hit him or anything.

[Repulsive Monkey]

If CMC's legs were wood then Lo must of acquired greater knowledge than CMC or supseed him wouldn't you agree....logically speaking?

[jjy5016]

Mr. Cai got his softness, relaxation and center of gravity from the wuji standing which is quite different from postures and methods used to gain power for fighting. He also did his "grasping the birds tail" sequence as low as possible and pushed hands every day for years with anyone he would meet. His practice seems aimed at primarilly developing central equilibrium, relaxation and moving the centerline properly.

Someone gave me about 2hrs or more worth of footage of him from when he was in the states all those years ago taken by Fong Ha and others. He looks very relaxed and doesn't have to move much to push guys away. Fong Ha, Henry Look, Diepersloot and others are all in the video so they really thought that he was the shit. Judging from the way he played with them he really mush have had something.

Tao Ping Hsiang was the softest push hands guy I ever met. Imon's description of pushing with Mr. Cai sounds just like him. Never knew how good his root was because I could never lay a hand on his body to test it. Most of the ultra soft guys that I've met don't have seem to have much power though. The only guy I know of that beat Mr. Choy is quite soft but he is skilled in issuing power.

[Darth Rock&Roll]

before and after with tracking all along is the only way to definitively show if a method produces results.
If you are doing a bunch of other things as well, then you are hard pressed to claim that any one method is what is doing something. It could very well be a compound solution.

Also, many methods are temporary in their application and are used as gateway training to other areas. For instance, you have to prepare for a month or so before you can do things that require extreme flexibility, say eagle posture for instance. It takes time, but one method leads to another.

[neijia_boxer]

Of most of the B.S. ive seen in various kung fu and tai chi magazines- one article was worth copying and passing out to my students when i used to teach. it was an article about- Cai Song Fang. In it he mentioned that when Yang Jian hao was on his death bed he gave Yang chen fu a piece of paper with the secret to enhance his taiji skill. the paper had written on it to do develop Wu ji standing. Cai Song Fang did learn some Yang taiji from a master but felt it was to difficult, but his teacher told him to do the Wu ji standing to develop real skill. i always liked that article very much. there is alot more in it than i can mention here.

As for Ben Lo standing- my instructior (student of ben lo) we normally do the yang short form once or twice. then do about 20 minutes of standing ("earn your burn" in the legs) in either the ward-off, roll back, brush knee, pipa, or repulse monkey shape. then do the form or first section a few more times after that.

[Bhassler]

If CMC's legs were wood then Lo must of acquired greater knowledge than CMC or supseed him wouldn't you agree....logically speaking?

Not really, it just means that Lo surpassed CMC in the gungfu of standing with soft legs. Taiji encompases a broad range of skills, and excellence in one does not necessarily indicate superior ability in any other skill. Personally, I've never met anyone from the uber-soft school who was worth a damn relative to their martial art, but obviously it would be foolish for me to dismiss the whole practice simply because I haven't met someone who could demonstrate the utilty of it. I've seen a lot of things but I haven't seen everything, and I have to believe that if I were to meet a Ben Lo or Cai Song Fang it could only enrich my experience of taiji and the broader world as well.