Nice Article by Martin Wheeler

[Ian]

WHY SYSTEMA?

Over the recent years I have read with interest on the internet back and forth as to the validity of training in Systema by observers who have only viewed experts in the art on YouTube or video. Usually a comparison is made to the most visual of fighting arts, mixed martial arts. The same types of questions are posted over and over again, “Why do they train slowly? Why does this look way too easy? Why did that guy fall over and seem unable to get back up?”

And I read with equal interest the various ways in which the art is defended by practitioners of Systema. Not that they are not valid questions, they definitely are, it is just I rarely hear these same questions from anyone in seminars, classes, or in sparring sessions, no matter what their background or what speed they work at.

Just for the sake of balance, I began in the martial arts at a tender age and have studied in many full contact environments from boxing systems to grappling systems, to clever weapons based and ‘street-fighting’ arts, and have enjoyed sparring, fighting and training for the last thirty years with anyone who’s paths I have crossed from beginners to world-class full contact fighters. I was a bouncer for ten years and I am currently contracted to share my views on close-quarter-combatives with professionals from elite security services around the world, as-well-as MMA fighters, Systema practitioners, traditional martial artists and civilians.

So why, if I have studied all these other full contact systems with relative success, would I choose Systema?

For me that is easy to answer. It’s because I have tried it. I am just one of many who brought whatever I had in my little bag of tricks to test Vladimir Vasiliev, or heaven forbid, Mikhail Ryabko, when I first met them. And I have yet to see anyone who did not come out the other end of the experience the same as I did, that is to say, confused, in pain but with a profound insight into the fact that something fundamental had changed.
To put it mildly, there is a lot more going on with Systema than meets the eye. And if there were not, if you could really just see what was happening by watching it on YouTube, then it would not be very good Systema.

Mixed martial arts are dramatic, fast and superbly visual. The best method for two pugilistic grapplers to go at it since the gladiators of old Rome. You can see what is happening and the results are self evident. It hosts some of the best conditioned and most versatile athletes.

I love to watch it, I love to train in it and always enjoy working with anyone from that world. And in my opinion, anyone who trains in MMA who is even half decent, a man or woman, is to be taken very seriously.

So I hear you ask: Well, if Systema is so good why isn’t it in the UFC? And I think that is an excellent question.

But I might ask: Well, if the UFC was any good why don’t they throw a knife in the cage?

As unrealistic as that is, maybe you get my point? The dynamic of a fight would change immediately if a knife were indeed tossed into the cage. You would see two highly trained fighters having to immediately adapt to a completely new set of rules or die almost instantaneously.
I think anyone would agree that eating jabs from a skilled fighter, possibly the least lethal of MMA striking attacks, sucks, but by comparison is quite pleasant compared to a single knife wound.

When I first trained with Vladimir he stopped me in the middle of a sparring session and said in his own inimitable way, ‘Martin, I know men that you would take to pieces in the ring’. Of course, stupidly beaming with pride I thought he was complimenting me, until he turned away to attend another student and added flatly... ‘But they would kill you.’

And there’s the rub. Almost every visible strategy, philosophy and motion that is great in an MMA sport environment is useful in the street and even on the battlefield. But only useful. Whereas everything in Systema is purposely designed for both of the later environments, is not visual, and has been proven as effective in those arenas as MMA has in the cage. Systema’s structure is intentionally designed to appear structureless, and the speed of the action although registering as slow to the eye is actually a highly developed relational timing, deceptive due to the Systema practitioner remaining calm.

Recently I was invited to introduce the concept of Systema to an overseas Special Operations Unit. While there, I was shown a video of various instructors that had been invited to train their operators and show what they had to offer. Among them was a top MMA coach from Pride. I asked what they thought of his training. ‘Excellent’ the Colonel said ‘but for us, virtually useless.’

This is in no way disparaging to the Pride coach, he was obviously excellent. But the fact remains, what is good in one arena is not necessarily good for another. Systema is not designed primarily for a sport environment or a sport mentality anymore than MMA is primarily designed for a battlefield environment or a combat mentality.

One could train for twenty years in Jujitsu, for example, and be an amazing grappler. But if you were to introduce just one more opponent into the fight you would not be doing Jujitsu anymore. It is simply not designed for fighting two opponents efficiently at the same time, even on the ground. It is primarily structured to fight one opponent at a time.

I am not saying the Jujitsu fighter would not prevail, I am merely suggesting that if he had to fight two or more possibly armed opponents at the same time on a daily basis then his training might soon start to look, at least from the outside, like Systema. And then armed with that knowledge, the way he worked against a single opponent again would also dramatically change. After ten years or so it would look as alien to another Jujitsu practitioner observing it from the outside as Systema does now after centuries of refinement.

Systema, as a martial art, in the form it exists now is primarily designed for real life application, it works for unpredictable situations (such as multiple opponents, various weapons, uneven terrains, poor lighting, confined space, etc.) for professionals in the military, law enforcement and security, for someone who’s got to fight while injured or wounded or has to protect a woman or child, for someone who is older or in a poor physical condition. Training and fighting in Systema is designed to avoid injuries, and even heal your old ones. And that requires a very different bag of tricks, look and feel to a sport fighting art.

Although, as Vladimir once remarked with that casual profound quietness ‘Systema just happens to be a martial art’. And to have any understanding of that gem, one cannot merely observe it from the outside...

About the author.
Martin Wheeler is a Senior U.S. Systema Instructor certified under Vladimir Vasiliev. Martin is teaching regular Systema classes at Los Angeles School of Russian Martial Art. He has trained in the martial arts for over thirty years ranging from Boxing, Grappling, Weapons fighting, Kenpo Karate and for 10 years in Systema. He is contracted to teach SWAT teams and Special Operations Units and is also produced Hollywood screen writer.

[middleway]

Thanks, Ian. It's a good article, with Martin making some valid points.

That said, I do think that some Systema practitioners get comfortable with the level of contact and speed they engage in during training. But when they play with MMA people and grapplers, I've seen some of them then fall apart under pressure from harder, faster hitting and swifter throws than they've encountered in their Systema. I think there is a gap between the level of training for some Systema practitioners and a realistic level of contact and speed in attack that they would encounter on the streets. In the sparring/practice situations that I'm thinking about, the Systema practitioners were a little stunned and befuddled dealing with a throw or a sweep.

Throwing a knife in the mix definitely should change the chemistry and movement, and Systema does work with knives. Again, however, I think there may sometimes be a serious gap between the level of intensity (speed and subtlety) of practice knife attacks used in Systema practice and what is likely to be encountered on the street.

Systema has some good training methodologies, and the cultivation of relaxed alertness under pressure is an excellent practice. But Systema practitioners need to keep moving up and challenging themselves in practice to get to the level of senior instructors like Martin and Kwan. "Mind the gaps.

+1 ... well said!

and Although not a systema guy at all, i like the way people like Valentin vasiliev and our very own Rob P seem to be taking their art to a higher pressure place to work on these very things. Can only lead to good things.

I think Martin Wheeler is actually the best moving guy i have seen on Video from Vlads Gym .. Kwan Lee is up there too. Such a controlled and relaxed movement from those guys it really looks like they have captured what Vlad has taught them.

Cheers
Chris

[strawdog]

I'm curious if there are any person(s) purely trained in Systema who is/are "good fighter(s)". It seems that a lot of Systema instructors especially those known for their ability in a fight came into Systema with years of experience from other martial arts.

I began in the martial arts at a tender age and have studied in many full contact environments from boxing systems to grappling systems, to clever weapons based and ‘street-fighting’ arts, and have enjoyed sparring, fighting and training for the last thirty years with anyone who’s paths I have crossed from beginners to world-class full contact fighters. I was a bouncer for ten years.

I also know of other Systema instructors who would be monsters to fight. But, they have also had at least 20 years in various martial arts and being a professional operator before they came in to Systema. Are they skillful because of Systema? I think it's more to do with the amount of experience and training they had before getting into Systema.

[middleway]

This is a good point SD, interested in the systema guys thoughts on this.

Cheers
Chris

[I am...]

Systema seems to me sort of like Bagua or Tai Chi in one respect: If a person that already knows how to fight finds it, it can make them 2x as nasty to deal with. For a person that has done nothing prior though, it can be difficult to face a strong, aggressive opponent without fearing what they do not know, since they spend so much time dealing with relaxed training partners. I have loved my time spent with Systema, and may end up back there training with it one day again. Their work with breath and psychology and its integration into all facets of training is good stuff in my book.

[GrahamB]

Just an observation: Tom draws a useful distinction - people tend to talk about a "Systema practitioner" as if they are all the same. Yet we'd never talk about a "Bagua guy" as if they were all the same. Is that because:

a) Systema is relatively new (at least in its public incarnation) so there are less instructors

b) there are very few different styles of Systema because it's relatively new

c) there is more coherence in Systema practice than in CMA practice (i.e. there is no "Systema for health/performance/spirtual only, there is only 'Systema'")

At the end of the day everybody is an individual - perhaps there is no such thing as a Systema guy?

[Ian]

Thanks, Ian. It's a good article, with Martin making some valid points.

That said, I do think that some Systema practitioners get comfortable with the level of contact and speed they engage in during training. But when they play with MMA people and grapplers, I've seen some of them then fall apart under pressure from harder, faster hitting and swifter throws than they've encountered in their Systema. I think there is a gap between the level of training for some Systema practitioners and a realistic level of contact and speed in attack that they would encounter on the streets. In the sparring/practice situations that I'm thinking about, the Systema practitioners were a little stunned and befuddled dealing with a throw or a sweep.

Throwing a knife in the mix definitely should change the chemistry and movement, and Systema does work with knives. Again, however, I think there may sometimes be a serious gap between the level of intensity (speed and subtlety) of practice knife attacks used in Systema practice and what is likely to be encountered on the street.

Well, it's no secret that many systema practitioners are just not that good (myself included, but at least I know my level and I'm not making videos of myself)*. For example, I'm disappointed that many people seem to treat classes and seminars as social gatherings, and don't put in the work in their own free time.

For those who do put in the work and who aren't confused about the purposes of those skill development drills, they seem to be able to hold their own against practitioners of other styles.

*This is not a critique of anyone on rsf.

Systema has some good training methodologies, and the cultivation of relaxed alertness under pressure is an excellent practice. But Systema practitioners need to keep moving up and challenging themselves in practice to get to the level of senior instructors like Martin and Kwan. "Mind the gaps."

Agree. This has been talked about here before. It's my personal opinion that systema practitioners should really demand more of themselves and more of their instructors.

and Although not a systema guy at all, i like the way people like Valentin vasiliev and our very own Rob P seem to be taking their art to a higher pressure place to work on these very things. Can only lead to good things.

Can't speak for Rob, but I have a feeling Valentin has always been like that. Or at least he has gradually toned it down. A class with Val or Sebastian means you'll be eating some heavy hits and may not be able to climb stairs the following day

I'm curious if there are any person(s) purely trained in Systema who is/are "good fighter(s)". It seems that a lot of Systema instructors especially those known for their ability in a fight came into Systema with years of experience from other martial arts.

Don't know. I think (correct me if I'm wrong) that Mikhail pretty much studied his family style? Though Alex Kostic did a bunch of Russian styles, Vlad trained in several Japanese and Russian things before his time with Mikhail, Val did full-contact karate etc. No shame in that as the results speak for themselves.

I have zero interest in style purity. I think experimenting with other styles to better inform your practice is a must for people who are serious about MAs.

I also know of other Systema instructors who would be monsters to fight. But, they have also had at least 20 years in various martial arts and being a professional operator before they came in to Systema. Are they skillful because of Systema? I think it's more to do with the amount of experience and training they had before getting into Systema.

Well, from reading interviews of a number of these guys, it seems that the general consensus is that systema helped supercharge their skills, or that it has forced them to change their training approach entirely.

Anyway, the systema world is hardly standardised so the skill level varies. Some people join and never leave, some people try it and find out it's not for them.

[RobP2]

Some good points here. I think Graham has hit the nail on the head

"At the end of the day everybody is an individual - perhaps there is no such thing as a Systema guy?"

I think that is a fundamental point. My personal view is that Systema is not a martial art - it is just that fighting and self defence are one expression of Systema. So are horse riding, sports, survival skills and virtually anything else you can think of.

So a "Systema guy" might be a fighter, a painter or a musician ( ) - becuase it is truly about the individual. That is why there is so little formality and structure to the "Systema world", it defeats the object of the exercise! You then have to bear this in mind when you see people training - you may look on it as combat training, they may be thinking of it in different terms. OTOH if they are presenting it as combat /self protection training then there obviously needs to be certain factors at work (pressure testing, good understanding of physical and psychological, etc)

A guy here recently asked if our sparring seminar would be "all Systema guys". Well, anyone is welcome, but the answer is no, they are guys who do Systema.

As far as previous background goes - it's a mixed blessing. On the plus side, I have guys in my group with long backgrounds in karate, sombo, MMA, or just plain old hooliganism. Each brings their skills to the table which can benefit everyone else. On the down side they may have some habits that need looking it (inappropriate tension, lack of mobility, etc)

We also have some guys with no previous experience - down side, they start from scratch, up side they are a clean slate. After a couple of years some of these guys are more than capable of holding their own against those with greater MA experience. I guess it's down to the individual again.

One of the best examples of this process from an experienced guy's point of view is Steve Wildash's blog - it's fascinating to see how his approach has changed hover the last couple of years http://stevewildash.blogspot.com/

cheers

Rob

[GrahamB]

Thanks Rob - I really like Steve's blog -I was just reading it before you posted actually. Very interesting. I like the videos of him working out in his back garden too - always gives me lots of ideas for ways of training.

Steve W: What is it about the likes of Vladimir Vasiliev and Mikhail Ryabko that impress some people and not others? What was it that impressed you enough to get involved with Systema?

SK: What impresses me most about them is their tremendous display of combat efficiency in non-prearranged, non-choreographed demonstrations. I know that what I see is not actual combat, since their assistants are not using full speed, power, or intention (although we have seen some pretty realistic demonstrations from time to time), but I can’t help being impressed by their ability to deal instantly with anything that comes their way. Regarding the haters and non-believers, I believe that Charles Perrow, a sociologist known for studying industrial accidents put it best when he wrote: "We construct an expected world because we can't handle the complexity of the present one, then process the information that fits the expected world, and find reasons to exclude the information that might contradict it". So, I guess there are a rather large number of people out there thinking, “Duh, it doesn’t look like MMA, so it’s fake”...

[Ian]

One guy to look at is Kevin Secours. I believe he still teaches his modern kempo jujitsu but the look and the focus seem to be very different from how he moves and what he covers in his systema classes. http://www.montrealsystema.com/Videos.html

Another is Martin Wheeler. There used to be a clip of him doing kempo and his systema work looks a lot smoother. http://www.montrealsystema.com/uploads/ ... 7_0001.wmv
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YiuXkP9WWaM

[I am...]

I would love to meet both guys one day. Kevin seems like a very knowledgeable guy, and has some great skills from what I have seen, as does Martin. Thanks for posting clips Ian.