Nutrition, Daniel Reid, Training and the Old Masters

[alexsuffolk]

A lot of modern folk, of which martial artists are a part, are fighting a battle against the rampant killer of chronic disease - heart disease, cancers, diabetes and more, often far more persistant and deadly than those bad guys in the shadows who we are going to 'flowing body palm' or plain old choke out of existance....

Several of the Chinese masters i know have had serious heart disease from eating too much fatty foods such as pork, others have terrible diets but somehow the practice seems to keep them hearty and vibrant in their eighties. Wang Ji Wu in his his XYQ book gives great advice which is worth reading about diet and practice, hygene and habits of living.

I like Daniel Reids books but i do wonder some of his advice such as -

- soya lecithin is great for health (i thought it a entirely artificial product?)
- soya will wreck out immune systems and give us cancer (i thought all studies have showed its great benefits)


How many of you consider nutrition and use of herbs as a vital part of your training ?

Anyone here experimented with raw or vegetarian diet? If so, did you find your energy levels increase or decrease?

In your lineage, did the old masters give advice about nutrition? eating according to seasons?

Japanese vs Chinese diet of old and new , pros and cons?

Any input and feedback is much appreciated, thank you.

Alex

[Graculus]

I have heard some worrying opinions on soya products, but these apply principally to modern products which use it. Traditional soya products (especially beneficial for women and thought to be behind the low rate of breast cancer in the older generation of Japanese women) require fairly lengthy preparation, fermentation etc., which remove much that is harmful. So if you like natto and tofu - that's good for you. Soy latte, on the other hand, is not. (The reason why these soy products are good for women is hormonal, so there have also been some worries expressed on the possible negative effect on men. Also, using soy as a replacement for milk means that you have to get your calcium from somewhere else).

BTW I am an informed layman, not a nutritionist so don't take my word as gospel.

graculus

[C.J.Wang]

I remeber reading a Chinese article that mentions the negative effects of drinking undercooked (raw) soy milk. Another thing is that because soya contains high-levels of purin and plant protein, people with gout and kidney problems should only eat them occassionly in small quantities.

I don't think I've come across any information about wrecking the immune system. Asians have been consuming soy products for millenia, so I believe for the most part they are pretty safe for both men and women.

In southern CMA systems, indoor disciples are given special herbal formulas for either external or internal use to aid their training -- to prevent injuries and/or to strengthen the body overall.

[alexsuffolk]

Graculus - you mean natto and tempe, right? Because i thought tofu is not fermented (unless choudofu, stinky bean curd which i think is? delicious stuff...). Natto by the way is meant to be a great medicine for heart disease.

CJ Wang - so is health store soy milk raw or cooked ? is the dojang (sp?) you find across asia the same ??

re. herbal formulas - often the reason they are kept for indoor disciples is that they are context specific or very powerful. For example i was given one medicine based on deer musk which can bring a comatose man to consiousness (so i was told!) and yet if taken at midday can cause stroke. When i took it (with not a little caution) the feeling of intensified circulation was almost immediate, and it did clear up a large swelling caused by a heavy strike within 8 hrs. Strong stuff indeed.

Thank you.

[Alexander]

Personally, I consider nutrition to be #1, Here's why:

I hate to be such a cynic, but I can't count the number of overweight martial arts I've seen. Martial artists who have trouble walking a mile, who end practice and get a double bacon cheeseburger, and who think they (because of skill, not health/fitness) will be totally fine in a "street fight". Literally, I can't even count. I think it would be a travesty for me to be interested in martial arts, meditation, and medicine (For me, all have health aspects) -- and then go and die of an easily preventable disease or illness.

But above that, I think that the body is an incredible organism, machine, microcosm, whatever you want to call it. Making it run at maximum efficiency means giving it the best fuel you can give it. That's your diet.

I gave up all form of soft drinks at about age 13, and have stuck with water/tea (and occasionally alcohol) since. Last year (my last year of college, on the crew team) I started having bad digestive problems, so now I'm 98% vegetarian in diet. I haven't noticed myself any weaker concerning lifting weights, performance, etc. My digestive health is great again. I haven't noticed changes in my energy levels, I still feel perfect every day.

I also consider herbs a vital part of training, mostly for recovery purposes, but also as general tonics if I'm having a "Something feels off" day. E.g. my parents have a large vegetable garden out back, and I have a large personal herb garden. I grow about 30% herbs for teas, and 70% for medicinal use. I will use herbs for specific things such as a sore throat, stomach feeling upset, etc. For specific injuries, I make poultices, tinctures, salves, liniments.

I haven't quite learned enough about herbs to be taking them internally (aside from as a tincture), so I most stick with liniments and poultices to speed up recovery time (e.g. application while sleeping).


RE: Raw Diet. My grandma has diabetes and she constantly is telling me "hurry up and go to graduate school for alternative medicine! I want to get of all these damned drugs!" I heard something about a raw diet and diabetes, so I recommended a diet plan to her that I read on an M.D.'s website. Within a month or two she said she was off of 3 medications she had to take daily.

[jkuo]

In a sense, nutrition is part of my training. If I want to train hard, I need to be healthy and energized. That means eating right. I feel that proper nutrition is more part of my daily life though. It's not just for my training.

I've been vegetarian for over 10 years at this point. Going vegetarian actually increased my energy levels, probably since it was a conscious change that really cleaned up my diet. I've had no issues maintaining my energy and increasing my strength relative to my meat-eating friends. The biggest issue I've had with being vegetarian has been social. I get grief from some of my carnivorous friends, and it's not always easy to find vegetarian options when eating out.

In regards to soy, my reading so far has been that highly processed soy (like the "soy protein isolate" you find in protein bars) isn't that good for you. The stuff that's not industrially processed, particularly the fermented products like miso and tempeh, are fine.

[Methods]

When I was young, in my teens my teacher supplemented my training with herbs, tons of herbal mixes and congees, hated them but they made me strong and healed me much faster. My teacher mostly ate herbs and some vegies but strongly emphasized the importance of meat (not cheeseburgers for christs sake) but good fresh meat due to its nutritional values for a growing boy training. My teacher also explained after 30 or when not training the body does not need meat anymore and is deemed unnatural.
When I was in my early 20's late teens I decided to go veggie. Besides training I was surfing NSSA (semi pro) so I was surfing twice a day, working out, doing KF and working at night to pay the rent all the while going to school part time if my surfing schedule permitted it (travel).
I found that I had the same energy levels if I substituted seafood one or twice a week (fresh that I caught myself - sea urchin, lobster, sea bass, dorado and yellow fin). If not I was always very tired, not lethargic, but needed naps quite often to gain my energy back as well I would have to eat major meals six times a day to keep up my energy levels.
My teacher was fully against this veggie diet of mine from the get go, but being the religion that I am and the people that at time were surrounding me this is the path that I chose. When it comes down to it it depends on the individual. I was very thin with a very low fat count with lots of lean muscle (skinny buffed guy - bruce lee stylz due to the surfing) but a person with a slow metabolism and higher fat count with less muscle Im sure would benefit from a veggie diet across the board.

All in all I dont think there is a better diet for anyone, we are all different leading very different lives, and that is what life is about living - not dieting...

[Bhassler]

Nutrition is a big part of my training. I've seen huge changes since I went to a better diet. I think specific diets can vary tremendously per the individual; for myself I just looked for a whole system that was self-consistent. So I get my basic diet, supplements, herbs, and dietary advice all from one source. I also looked for something simple: so I eat food and not supplements, bars, or shakes, and I eat things that have been around a long time and don't have too many ingredients, like vegetables, rice, beans, and fish.

[Chris McKinley]

Personally, I'd go to martial arts experts in any lineage for solid scientific nutrition advice even less than I would go to my nutritionist for real-world self-defense knowledge. It's a matter of the right tool for the right job. There's been such an explosion of legitimate scientific knowledge in the world of nutrition over the last 20-25 years that there's simply no excuse to be turning to the Chinese equivalent of the Foxfire book for nutrition advice when real science is a mouse click away.

[DeusTrismegistus]

Soy is dangerous unless it is fermented. The only traditional non-fermented soy food is tofu and japanese wives would feed their husbands tofu if they were tired of their husbands virility. There was recently a man in texas whose testicles shrank, his facial hair started going away, he started growing breasts, and it was because he was eating too much soy. The phytoestrogens can be a problem for women too as they have now started finding that women who take hormone replacements during menopause increase their risk of certain cancers. The fermented soy foods such as Natto are very healthy though. Almost any fermented food is very good for you. Traditionally made sourkraut is also very good, which cabbage as well as soy and some other veggies are goitrogenic. Goitrogens suppress thyroid function but they are neutralized by fermenting and somewhat by cooking.

So far most studies on diet that actually look at how different people are effected by different diets shows that people do best on a diet most similar to their ancestral diet. Meaning a native american will do best on meat, corn, and other traditional foods from that culture, a person from India will do well without beef, and mainly vegetarian.

If anyone is interested in nutrition and health then I recommend three resources. Good Calories, Bad Calories by Gary Taubes, The Weston A. Price foundation, and second-opinions.co.uk . None of these are mainstream resources although the Weston A. Price foundation is closest and all will be giving information that is counter to the popular view. Good Calories, Bad Calories was written by a science journalist who started studying nutrition 10 years ago and was appalled and amazed by what he found out. To summarize, modern nutritional advice is based on bad science and unestablished dogma, and a lot of what you thought you knew about diet, obesity, and disease is wrong. He back up his viewpoint with a very extensive bibliography so if you want to read the studies he cites you can find them. The Weston A. Price foundation gives information regarding disease and traditional foods. Weston A. Price was a dentist who traveled the world and studied primitive cultures. Universally he found that they are not affected by the "Diseases of Civilization" as they used to be known. These include diabetes, appendicitis, diverticulitis, atherosclerosis, cancer, thyroid diseases, gastro-intestinal diseases, and many others. The content of the website is about getting adequate nutrition, what is adequate nutrition, (which is vastly different from the RDAs established 50 years ago with crappy methods), and eating traditional foods for health. These include raw milk, fermented and lacto-fermented foods, organ meats, and lots of other stuff. The second opinions website is similar in that it talks about the dietary causes of disease. What is a common theme on second opinions is that carbohydrates are responsible and primarily refined carbs. The Weston A. Price foundation is IMO the best resource on this subject though and possibly the least controversial.

[splitastone]

Proper Nutrition and adequate rest (Sleep) are central to health and longevity. The advice I give others is "If it's not good for you, it's bad for you." When making food choices it's prudent to evaluate the benefit to risk ratio. Organic fruit and vegetables would be High Benefit, Low Risk. French Fries would be High Risk, Low Benefit.

Suggestions for healthy eating:

1. Live by the mantra "If it's not good for you, it's bad for you."

2. Eat Less - Most people consume too many calories. Restricting your caloric intake will keep you healthy and increase your longevity. Current research has demonstrated that restricting calories maintains muscle function as we age. To estimate calories choose a healthy weight for your height and body structure and multiply that number by 10. My ideal weight is 170 so (170 x 10) = 1700 calories a day. If you go below your healthy weight (if you are very active) you can add 100 calories per day for a week and see if that gets you up to you goal weight. Every meal or snack should be nutrient dense and good for you.

3. Avoid Iron (foods with high iron content like red meat). Excess iron = heart disease, cancer, liver disease, brain disease, hypogonadism, and premature death.

4. Drink Tea (Black, Green or White) with every meal and several times a day. Tea binds with iron and prevents it's absorption.

I eat fresh fish and eggs and low fat yogurt. I stay away from Tuna or other fish with high Mercury. I avoid soy as much as possible. Soy is estrogenic in men. As men age their testosterone to estrogen ratio moves towards estrogen dominance. This is why many middle age and older men have gynecomastia, prostate problems and poor libido.

I am exceptionally healthy and fit for my age. I am as muscular (and as strong) as the 20 year olds in my gym. I am 45. I look like I am in my 30s.

Feel free to contact me if you want more info or details.

-Sean

[Alexander]

ries per day for a week and see if that gets you up to you goal weight. Every meal or snack should be nutrient dense and good for you.

3. Avoid Iron (foods with high iron content like red meat). Excess iron = heart disease, cancer, liver disease, brain disease, hypogonadism, and premature death.

4. Drink Tea (Black, Green or White) with every meal and several times a day. Tea binds with iron and prevents it's absorption.

I
-Sean

Spinach is high in iron.. I assume you mean to avoid only meats high in iron.

Doesn't excess black tea (drinking several cups a day..) become one of the major contributors in male kidney stones?

[bailewen]

How many of you consider nutrition and use of herbs as a vital part of your training ?

Nutrition, yes. Herbs, no, not "vital" anyways.

Anyone here experimented with raw or vegetarian diet? If so, did you find your energy levels increase or decrease?

I consider the raw foods diet to be a fad diet and both unappetizing and non-nutritious. It's based completely on psuedo-science. I experimented with vegetarianism for a few years but I seem to do better with a little meat now and then.

In your lineage, did the old masters give advice about nutrition? eating according to seasons

Yes. This last one is the only part I can fully endorse. I think that traditional Chinese dietary stuff is far more practical than any of the western stuff. Not more effective, more practical. It's easier to learn and kind of more holistic. You don't need a degree in physiology to keep up. I've been learning little by little over the years. I often don't follow the guidelines because I just really like to eat certain things and I'm just not the fundamentalist type.

For the most part, Shifu follows the Yellow Emperor's Classic. That means learning what foods are warm, cool or neutral, what flavours associate with which organ systems and a general understanding of the individual's condition. Different diets for different people and definitely means eating with the seasons.

That combined with the basic stuff I learned from mom that I used to think everyone knew but now know is not basic common knowledge. Stuff like whole grains are good and fried foods are bad. Olive oil is better than most cooking oils and clear vegetable oils are better than margarine or animal fat except I know think that lamb fat is has some positive qualities. Avoid packaged foods and eat your veggies. I'm always shocked and awed how non-instinctual this is for many people.

The last category is a sort of food "self defense" you need to pick up in China as the general food safety level here is so low that there are all sorts of food that traditionally would be good for you but that I try to avoid because I am terrified of what has been put in them or of the sanitation issues at hand.

[splitastone]

Spinach is high in iron.. I assume you mean to avoid only meats high in iron.

Doesn't excess black tea (drinking several cups a day..) become one of the major contributors in male kidney stones?

Spinach is high in tannins. Tannins suppress iron bioavailability.

If you have a personal or family history of kidney stones you could drink green or white tea instead of black tea. I drink a fews cups of black tea every day and have yet to experience kidney stones.

-Sean

[Haoran]

I've found a lot of use from Acid Alkaline (Robert Young) diet info

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z24Jy7YnzA4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-pIT0AFec0