Square, Circle, Triangle

[WVMark]

Sort of some related threads here and over at Aikiweb.

Here is where the mention of it started:
http://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5791
In the link provided, http://www.taoistinstitute.com/pdfs/Legacy-of-Haumea-Lefiti.pdf, there was a paragraph about the square, circle, and triangle.

Part of the characteristics of Mok ga was the use of practical concepts from math, especially geometry. Tiny explained that if one truly understood the functional use of the square, circle, and triangle in combat, they would become a highly skilled fighter.

The founder of aikido, Ueshiba, mentions the square, circle, and triangle. So I posted on Aikiweb, asking if anyone knew how these two concepts from Mok ga and aikido were related. I received some answers on how Ueshiba viewed the concept, but no posts on if the two systems had similar or separate views.

The Aikiweb thread is here: http://www.aikiweb.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16645

My questions for those here are

Does anyone know how these two concepts are related? Ueshiba seemed to view this concept both martially and spiritually. Does anyone know if both of those are similar to how Mok ga views the square, circle, and triangle? What other systems use this concept, either martially or spiritually?

Thanks,
Mark

[meeks]

more importantly, is there anyone on this board that trains mok gar that can answer the question on their behalf? Or like me, did everyone else have to google mok ga, find that it's more often spelled mok gar, and realize there's probably a cone of silence because everyone else here is primarily xing yi and bagua?

[alexsuffolk]

hi Mark

many systems use these shapes, including Hebei Xingyiquan, but explanations would tend to be kept for disicples.

One Pentjak Silat system i am familiar with had an interesting use of these, on a fighting level they were used in various stepping patterns, interweaving hand, foot, elbow, knee combos playing between line , circle and point, and particularly in strategies against gang attack (the highest skill was deemed to be 'escaping the corner' , ie. using the circle to escape the triangle.)

On a more general level, this system used -

Square - four sacred instruments being played in corners of the training area, used to help enter trance state.

Circle - Most secret, inner and outer circles. Different levels of teaching according to one's status within the school, only two or three most secret students for each master.

Triangle - ascending and descending - ascending represents the yearning upwards for uniting with the Almighty, the descending is the descent of spirit into matter and blessing the student with special powers such as invulnerability , invisibilty. power over the elements etc.

[Tiga Pukul]

In some silat systems (like Serak) the triangle, square and circle have also a firm place in the footwork.

[Alexander]

Hi Mark,
Bruce Frantzis is the only person I've seem mention the square, circle, and triangle related to the internal arts.

There is a section on them in his book, "The Power of Internal Martial Arts and Chi". P. 231 - 235.

If you'd like, I can look it up for you and type out the passage later today.

Edit: Haha, figures, you can find the first 2 pages here:
http://books.google.com/books?id=8cU3iw ... q=&f=false

But they cut you off once you get to the three key pages on it

[WVMark]

Thanks for the replies! It seems these three shapes are found in quite a few arts. I wonder what the origination of them are?

[alexsuffolk]

Nature. Basic building blocks of all the things aound us when in three dimensions. Origin of those visionary mandala things you see when in the....er... visionary state. Like those Silat guys.

[Alexander]

Nature.

Precisely.

[neijia_boxer]

square is for T
triangle is A
circle is for O

that spells TAO

[gosao]

All lies! The concept of square, circle, and triangle comes from the martial philosophy of the Teen Age Mutant Ninja Turtles. While some arts use the Bagua for inspiration the turtles meditated on their favorite food Pizza. The slices (triangle), the pizza pie (circle) and the box it came in (the square). These shapes can be found within all their fighting movements.

All sides pizza power you guys are fools not to see it!



Group meditative practice.

[Felipe Bidó]

square is for T
triangle is A
circle is for O

that spells TAO

Is that in chinese?

[Michael Babin]

In terms of close quarters bagua, you want to be the center of the circle [the axle around which everything else must revolve] or on the circumference moving around the axle at a safe distance. If you want to get into metaphors, when the axle spins true, it can drive the spokes connecting to the rim of the action at a variety of speeds though seeming to move relatively little on its own; when the axle destabilzes or the spokes are damaged, the turning of the wheel is impeded or broken. It's better to be the axle but sometimes you have to be the rim until you can break or jam some spokes.

On the other hand. the circle also contains a square which is divisible into triangles and both components can be useful for teaching footwork to beginners.

I would suspect that any unarmed striking arts that work would have some "practical math" built into them, even if the coach/sifu doesn't talk about it in such terms but teaches by skillful example.

[TaoJoannes]

Theres a great passage in the tai chi touchstones: yang family secret transmissions about the circle and the square with relation to tai chi, and cmc says a circle is just a bunch of triangles in the 13 treatises. Too lazy to transcribe it.

[SPJ]

these ideas exist in all styles.

A. square usually refered as fang

circles refered as quan or yuan.

2 points are a line, 3 points are a triangle etc.

B. definitions depending on the styles.

1. for example, 2 elbows and 2 knees from a square. or linear would be front to rear, left to right, up and down ( 2 points)
front, rear, left and right cover north, south, east and west considered as si fang or 4 directions (square)

not only points of directions, it could also be the fronts/planes,

we may also use up down left right to form a square.

if we step to the front, rear, left or right of the opponent, it is considered a square stepping.

2. circles are from the joints such as elbow, shoulder,waist, hip, knee etc but also from the steps.

3. triangle can be the facing and steps, if we step to the left of the opponent, and face the opponent crossly.

our body front/face and 2 arms/hands form a triangle. and the opponent facing us face on would be a reverse triangle, etc etc

---

The circles would harmonize the extremes of 4 directions (square), oftentimes they are also assigned as 5 elements: metal, wood, water, fire and earth.

on and on

fang yuan and triangles were known a looooong time ago.

[C.J.Wang]

The relationships between triangle, square, and circle are considered "indoor" material. They are not as simple as externally visible movement patterns.