Quick language question: Laoshi vs. Sifu

[edededed]

I would say that Cantonese is still Chinese - Mandarin just happens to be the official dialect right now; even though dialectal differences are much greater than those of other dialects, they are still considered dialects by many (some say "topolects"). Cantonese also happens to be the most ancient version of Chinese extant today, although of course it is not exactly the same as what ancient Chinese used back then.

Mandarin is definitely the most widely used today, though.

Anyway, good points by everyone!

[SPJ]

I am kind of old fashion or old school.

we usually address our teacher either xian shen (born first or earlier than us) or qian bei (previous generation).

qian bei usually just means older people or more experienced people refering to learning the style before us.

xian shen is much more respectful refering to a special field/trade including doctor, engineer etc.

lao shi: only means teacher

sifu: master of a trade such as carpenter etc

xian shen is most respectful.

[Daniel]

sifu: master of a trade such as carpenter etc

Yes. This is what I´ve heard over the years too. That the old connotation shifu had has changed in common usage in the Mainland. That it now often really does mean the same thing as the old British phrase "master", and can be used for anybody from cab-drivers to store-keepers. I heard this as the reason why some schools and teachers were going back to using laoshi instead. My teacher wanted me to do that in Beijing; my current chinese teacher, the same.

Good thread, though. At the end of the day it´s up to the teacher, of course. Sometimes I feel like asking my students call me "dimwit" instead of my first name. At times it feels more appropriate.


D.

Sarcasm. Oh yeah, like that´ll work.

[Ian]

bow to your sensei!

[bailewen]

I would say that Cantonese is still Chinese - Mandarin just happens to be the official dialect right now; even though dialectal differences are much greater than those of other dialects, they are still considered dialects by many (some say "topolects"). Cantonese also happens to be the most ancient version of Chinese extant today, although of course it is not exactly the same as what ancient Chinese used back then.

Mandarin is definitely the most widely used today, though.

Anyway, good points by everyone!

Two part answer.

First of all, in reference to the original comment, "I was going to tell her that there's no such thing as "saying it in CHINESE", it's either Mandarin, Cantonese, or whatever..." Simply not true. You and I are simply debating over philology. China does have an official language and it is Mandarin, except that they don't call it that. They call it "Chinese".

Second part.

You are only partially right about Cantonese being the most ancient dialect. It is more accurate to say that spoken Cantonese today is considered by many to be more similar to how people spoke hundreds of years ago than Mandarin is. All languages evolve and it can not be assumed that today's Cantonese is the same as that of even 100 years ago.

Mandarin just happens to be the official dialect right now; even though dialectal differences are much greater than those of other dialects, they are still considered dialects by many (some say "topolects")

I can't quite figure out what you are trying to say about dialectal differences. Differences between what and what? Between different dialects of Mandarin? The comparison between Cantonese and Mandarin is misleading because Mandarin is not a naturally evolved language like Cantonese. It was invented specifically to be the common language of all China. That's why it can claim to be "the" language. It is not really a northern dialect at all. It was created out of northern dialects and fairly recently. It's closest ancestor was "guan hua", literally, "government official-speak". It still serves that purpose but the name "guan hua" implies that your average citizen does not need to speak it. Only in the past 50 years or so has it been made mandatory for all Chinese.

Incidentally, I disagree strongly with the Wiki definition although I think that the historical stuff that follows is pretty good.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandarin_Chinese

I guess I would have to specify that when I refer to "Mandarin" I am referring to standard putonghua as taught in the public educational system in Mainland China today. The Wiki seems to be using the term to refer to the "topolect" as you called it, the umbrella family of all northern dialects.

[middleway]

Can I ask, what do people think the Merit is in using these terms? For the teachers Ego? or the confirmation for the Student in the relationship?

FWIW I like what Hejinghan said to a friend of mine when he said he wasnt comfortable using the term 'Master' to someone.

he said. 'Ok ... just say 'Mister' ... only one letter difference'



In the Japanese Arts it was always a big thing, Even now if i were to see my teacher from then i would call him Sensei .... just how i always referred to him so it would be strange to call him anything else, thats just his name in my head. lol.

However, this whole 'master, teacher, Shifu, Sifu, Laoshr, sensei' thing ... i aint sure about tbh. There are better ways to be respectful and give the due respect to the teacher, the tradition and the system ... than with a title IMO.

cheers
Chris

[bailewen]

Can I ask, what do people think the Merit is in using these terms? For the teachers Ego? or the confirmation for the Student in the relationship?

That's just what you call them. A college professor goes by "Prof. So and so", Doctors go by doctor so and so and kids are supposed to call adults "Mister so and so" and it's only been in the past 40 or 50 years that any of that changed even in America. As a school teacher I do not allow my students to call me by my first name. They call me "Mr. Belove" unless they are speaking Chinese which case "Bai Laoshi" is appropriate which, btw, is also what my coworkers call me so it's got nothing to do with seniority.

In Chinese confucian culture, you are supposed to address your martial arts instructor as Shifu. That's just the etiquette. It doesn't mean "master" in the sense that your post implied. It's just the formal term of address between students and martial arts teachers.

Laoshi is normally just for academics and after talking it over with a few people I am now convinced that the use of "laoshi" instead of "shifu" is just anti-Confucian sentiment which is a common trait among modern Chinese. In the west sometimes people use "laoshi" instead of it's direct translation, "teacher" because addressing our teachers as "teacher" just feels weird.

It's just etiquette. Nothing more. Nothing less.

[Darth Rock&Roll]

Oh Chud, you're having a meaningless tiff with your classmate.

You should both do each other to ease the sexual tension and then stay out of the waters of foreign language debate while unarmed.

[mrtoes]

Can I ask, what do people think the Merit is in using these terms? For the teachers Ego? or the confirmation for the Student in the relationship?

Hi Chris,

Nothing in itself of course, and if it encourages personality worship then it's a clear obstacle to progress.

There are teachers who don't expect any formality at all, first name terms, a bit like a friend showing a friend, very Taoist. Then there are teachers who (hopefully without encouraging any personality worship) encourage a certain degree of formality to the class, for lack of a better word. In class students usually refer to my teacher as "Sifu" out of respect, though he doesn't require it. I have met excellent teachers who use both approaches.

It might sound a bit odd but in a way when I'm training I like a certain barrier between me and the teacher and a degree of formality to the proceedings. I think it helps people to take the training seriously, and for me personally for that brief hour a degree of separation between me and the teacher helps me to focus totally on the task at hand. I've seen classes where there are periods where people just stand around chatting and not really taking things seriously and it bugs me when I just want to train.

Of course there's many good ways to go about training, and good training is not about what term you use to refer to your teacher, but I don't think formality in itself is necessarily a bad thing.

Matthew.

[grady]

I concur broadly with Omar's posts on this topic.

The 师傅/shi1fu* vs. 师父/shi1fu* distinction is the one most often overlooked in discussions on this topic, as their pronunciations in Standard Mandarin and most dialects are identical, and their meanings similar.

However my experience has been that 师傅/shi1fu* is used far more often by Northerners to address taxi drivers, craftsmen and the like.

Southerners seem to me to be more liable to use 先生/xian1sheng* (basically "mister", identical etymologically to the japanese "sensei") in the same context.

Incidentally, for those interested in how the term "Mandarin" came about, according to Chinese academics it is derived from the Chinese 满大人/man3da4ren2, literally "Manchurian Big Person", but basically a generic term that a member of the Qing Dynasty Manchurian ruling caste might use to refer to themselves.

Hence the usage of "Mandarin" in English first to denote a Qing Dynasty court official, and then the eventual broadening of the usage of the term to describe the dialect that came to be Modern Chinese.

That being said, I am obliged to admit that wikipedia basically disagrees with this etymology: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandarin_(bureaucrat)

FYI.

[yusuf]

not exactly a resposne to the OP but I think it also depends on the circumstance.. When I am alone with Matt's teacher I call him Paul... when talking to him in front of his students I call him Sifu.. in both contexts the respect is still there, but some of his students don;t yet understand it is a state rather than a title..

[mrtoes]

not exactly a resposne to the OP but I think it also depends on the circumstance.. When I am alone with Matt's teacher I call him Paul... when talking to him in front of his students I call him Sifu.. in both contexts the respect is still there, but some of his students don;t yet understand it is a state rather than a title..

Ditto Yusuf, outside class I call him by his first name. Really, it's not really a big thing at all but if it's part of encouraging an atmosphere where students take training seriously I think it's fine.

Matthew

[cdobe]

Can I ask, what do people think the Merit is in using these terms? For the teachers Ego? or the confirmation for the Student in the relationship?

Hey Chris,
addressing someone as "master" is entirely a western thing. To me the best translation of Shifu (师父) would be mentor which doesn't carry this connotation at all IMO. I think the term master is completely inappropriate and contributes a lot to egocentric bullshit.

cheers
CD

[taiwandeutscher]

I concur broadly with Omar's posts on this topic.

The 师傅/shi1fu* vs. 师父/shi1fu* distinction is the one most often overlooked in discussions on this topic, as their pronunciations in Standard Mandarin and most dialects are identical, and their meanings similar.

However my experience has been that 师傅/shi1fu* is used far more often by Northerners to address taxi drivers, craftsmen and the like.

Southerners seem to me to be more liable to use 先生/xian1sheng* (basically "mister", identical etymologically to the japanese "sensei") in the same context.

Incidentally, for those interested in how the term "Mandarin" came about, according to Chinese academics it is derived from the Chinese 满大人/man3da4ren2, literally "Manchurian Big Person", but basically a generic term that a member of the Qing Dynasty Manchurian ruling caste might use to refer to themselves.

Hence the usage of "Mandarin" in English first to denote a Qing Dynasty court official, and then the eventual broadening of the usage of the term to describe the dialect that came to be Modern Chinese.

That being said, I am obliged to admit that wikipedia basically disagrees with this etymology: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandarin_(bureaucrat)

FYI.

I also concure with Omar and Grady, mostly.

But the differences between southerners and notherners with Shifu and Xiansheng for masters of a craft are purely a mainland thing. We don't do it here in Taiwan.
And even Confucianism here never was suppressed, teachers for MA are normally called Laoshi, even when having baishi-ed.

To add a little more Taiwan twist, where the official Chinese is called "country language, Guoyu 國語, we still use the much more beautiful traditional characters, though we all read the shorversion of the PRC.
So here are the long versions:
師父
老師
At university, I hold it like Omar, refusing to be called Bai Jiaoshou (Prof. Bai) , prefering Bai Laoshi (Hi, Omar!) or my native "Herr Bohn". Bai also could be read as Bo, which is close to my family name.
On the street, you mostly hear Minnan, also from the south, from Fujian, which is rather different, and also older in comparisson with Putonghua. But as it has no real writing, I', not much interested in that, prefer classical Chinese.

[bailewen]

Having gotten my Chinese degree in the states I had to learn traditional as well as simplified characters although actually learning Chinese on the mainland...I find the simplified far more convenient for daily use. Of course in the computer age it matters little as it's pretty rare for me to actually write anything in Chinese when the software for typing it has gotten so good. I do agree that the traditional characters are prettier for the most part though although, ironically, the grass script tends to be closer to simplified. Many simplified characters seem to have been based somewhat on the grass script. There's a natural and artistic simplification that happens in that sort of calligraphy.

I make sure the students call me "laoshi" mainly because I teach middle school and the classes are large and extremely hard to control. Any added bit of formality helps manage that unruly group of anywhere from 50 - 70 12 and 13 year olds. I really don't need a more casual environment.

p.s. I once got my whole class yelling at me for calling Chinese "guoyu" as they all explained that that's what "Taiwanese Chinese" is called. At the University I was taught it was synonymous with putonghua. They didn't tell me about the social connotations.