Key tips for Avoiding "Tai Chi Knee" (Or in my case, Bagua)

[Alexander]

I figured I'd start a thread, if there already isn't one.

I'm a newcomer to the "IMA" and I seem to hear a lot about "Tai Chi Knee". I've heard about it a lot more recently, because I've been researching if the same is the case for Bagua.

Anyway I'm pretty anal about my knees -- I'm only 22, have no previous injuries (e.g. my skeleton shouldn't be too messed up already..), and i'm in pretty good 'shape'. Nonetheless, I still managed to be a complete duffer and give myself quad tendonitis (I guess overtraining...).

So now that I have a while to rest I guess I should be reviewing an important concept.

I always assumed that (when done properly) Tai Chi / Bagua would do nothing but strengthen tendons, ligaments, muscles, etc. From the little exposure I've had (My teacher, and youtube), all the older Bagua stylists I've seen seem to have no problems with their knees. I just saw Sun Zhijun's seminar at age 75 and he looked be in pretty damn good shape. So what does "doing properly" mean?

I'm trying to jot down some notes for me to pay attention to. I'm going to go back to walking the circle like it's day 1: at a snail's pace, following everything I've been missing.

Right now I have written down: body alignments, turning and stepping from the kua (I've finally experimented, and I know the feeling somewhat now). I was never doing this when doing my palm changes, so I must've been just jerking my knee around. Also, not going so low in stances (I tend to be flexible, so I go down 90* angle in the low stances). Fourth, paying meticulous attention during the circle walk and the 8 basic palms to not let the knee go over the toe.

For those of you who are more experienced, and perhaps have fixed your knees (or messed them up, and you know why..), can you throw me any more pieces of advice? I hope this will benefit others too.

Thanks a bunch..

[Chris McKinley]

I would recommend a basic course in Newtonian mechanics, usually found in Physics 101. Learn about the reality of sheer forces, "cams", pulleys, etc. Then realize that the knee is a weight-transference joint, not a weight-bearing joint. If those two things inform your training, your understanding will jump by leaps and bounds.

[cerebus]

Basically, do not let the knee "sag' inward (keep it out over the foot). When looked at from a frontal angle, ie directly in front of the toe/ knee-cap, the knee should be directly over the foot. There is a tendency (especially when the thigh muscles get tired) to relax the muscles and put the weight on the joint by letting the knee "sag" inward. This is bad for the tendons and ligaments as well as the cartilege of the joint and is also a structurally weaker position.

Another point is to sink your weight through the heels. This will prevent the knee from extending forward past the toes (when see from a side angle), thereby avoiding placing too much stress on the ligament under the kneecap.

[GrahamB]

I never heard of "Tai Chi Knee" or that Tai Chi gave you knee problems until I read it on emptyflower/rumsoaked fist.

Are there really these legions of crippled Tai Chi practitioners out there? Anybody here have serious knee problems caused by Tai Chi, or is it just hype?

[Juan]

Actually, when I first started tai chi I began to have knee problems as well. They have cleared up, but for the first couple of months I was experiencing alot of pain.

[cerebus]

I've heard of a fair number of people who have knee problems which are exacerbated by Tai Chi, Bagua, etc. My own knees were injured in the Army and gave me alot of problems when I first began training Hsing-I & Bagua until I had finally retrained my alignments along the lines of what I posted above.

[martialartist]

knee always aligned w/ toe

[GrahamB]

The knee is a hinge joint, just like the elbow (no coincidence they are both matched in the 6 harmonies). Bend a hinge like a hinge and it works fine - bend it any other way and you've got problems.

'heard of'... yeah, but does anybody actually know anybody who has seriously damaged their knee through Tai Chi? Or are any of those people actually on this board?

[C.J.Wang]

From the little exposure I've had (My teacher, and youtube), all the older Bagua stylists I've seen seem to have no problems with their knees. .

On the contrarary, I've seen plenty of old Bagua stylists with messed up knees from either over-training or training wrong. Ironically, some Bagua people who've never had any problems with their knees is NOT due to the fact that they train correclty, but because the way they walk the cricle is no different than taking an easy stroll down the alley. Since it does nothing to strengthen or change the body at all, they usually experience neither positive nor negative effects.

The idea of "strengthening" is that you put just the right amount of stress on something so that it is forced to adapt to that pressure and develop accordingly. If the stress is too great, injuries can occur; on the other hand, if the stress is not enough, than growth becomes limited. It's a delicate balance.

[johnwang]

can you throw me any more pieces of advice? I hope this will benefit others too.

Always keep your toes and knee pointing into the same direction. Don't let your toes pointing into one direction while your knee is pointing into another direction. When you stay in the posture as shown below and you have intention to strike on your left hand, you will twist your right knee (if you don't have intention to strike with your left hand then there is no good reason to stand like this anyway).

[Alexander]

I would recommend a basic course in Newtonian mechanics, usually found in Physics 101. Learn about the reality of sheer forces, "cams", pulleys, etc. Then realize that the knee is a weight-transference joint, not a weight-bearing joint. If those two things inform your training, your understanding will jump by leaps and bounds.

Could you please elaborate?

E.g. I'm familiar with the fact that the knee is a weight-transference joint, not weight-bearing joint. So how do I know when my knee is bearing weight, rather than transferring it? Pain? How do I put those two concepts into bodily awareness?

[Alexander]

From the little exposure I've had (My teacher, and youtube), all the older Bagua stylists I've seen seem to have no problems with their knees. .

On the contrarary, I've seen plenty of old Bagua stylists with messed up knees from either over-training or training wrong. Ironically, some Bagua people who've never had any problems with their knees is NOT due to the fact that they train correclty, but because the way they walk the cricle is no different than taking an easy stroll down the alley. Since it does nothing to strengthen or change the body at all, they usually experience neither positive nor negative effects.

The idea of "strengthening" is that you put just the right amount of stress on something so that it is forced to adapt to that pressure and develop accordingly. If the stress is too great, injuries can occur; on the other hand, if the stress is not enough, than growth becomes limited. It's a delicate balance.

So in your experience, are their messed up knees due to repeated injury (overtraining?), or due to improper training methods, or both?

[Chris McKinley]

Alexander,

RE: "So how do I know when my knee is bearing weight, rather than transferring it?". That one's easy. When it's bearing a stationary load...IOW, not moving. Obviously, you can't avoid that altogether, but it's one of the reasons why people standing in one place naturally shift their weight back and forth from leg to leg. I'm not sure what you mean by how do you put these things into body awareness other than to understand why you don't want to go over 90 degree on the knee for stationary poses.

I'll toss you another reason from physiology: adopting a stationary posture with only body weight naturally leads the motor cortex to reduce the number of motor units in the quads firing to keep that posture. This means that with fewer muscle fibers firing, more of the tensile stress is concentrated on fewer fibers, which can exceed the tension load threshold necessary to cause mechanical damage to those fibers' tendon attachments and/or to the connective tissue across the kneecap. This means that even with only bodyweight in a stationary pose, over time, tendonitis, bursitis and ligament damage can accumulate in small but significant locations corresponding to the over-stressed motor units' attachment sites.

IOW, it's not just a matter of the degree of angle, but also of the amount of continuous time spent in that posture without relieving the motor units involved.

[TrainingDummy]

To Chris McKinley,

Does that mean that you don't advocate the Holy Grail of holding postures for long periods of time Chris?
Do you use other methods for achieving the goals of stance training (relaxation, body awareness, connected power etc)?

Thanks,
D

[eastpaw]

I would recommend a basic course in Newtonian mechanics, usually found in Physics 101. Learn about the reality of sheer forces, "cams", pulleys, etc. Then realize that the knee is a weight-transference joint, not a weight-bearing joint. If those two things inform your training, your understanding will jump by leaps and bounds.

Could you please elaborate?

E.g. I'm familiar with the fact that the knee is a weight-transference joint, not weight-bearing joint. So how do I know when my knee is bearing weight, rather than transferring it? Pain? How do I put those two concepts into bodily awareness?

Put your weight into the back of your knee rather than the front.