Key tips for Avoiding "Tai Chi Knee" (Or in my case, Bagua)

[grzegorz]

Alex,

When I trained with BKF years ago he used to say Bagua was an art you did after you mastered another art.

At the time I didn't think much of it. Personally I don't think that Bagau necessarily goes places that the others don't, which he believes.

But I do agree with BKF that bagau is for people who already have very open bodies. I think the reality is in bagua you make you body do things at an extreme that you don't see in Xingyi and Taiji. If you body isn't ready for that it could be trouble.

I've seen the bagua you guys do and I remember that it had a lot of low stances all I can say is slow down, don't go down so low and be careful. Since the Chinese can squat for hours without any problems I wouldn't be surprised if your teacher can't understand why you'd have problems, but remember they're your knees and you'll be with them the rest of your life. At 22 you're getting in early which is wonderful but be sure you can stick it out for the long haul.

Good times,

G

[Chris McKinley]

TrainingDummy,

I don't have a problem with zhan zhuang, per se, and do it a lot myself. Holding postures with more than about 45-60 degrees of flexion I like to limit to no more than about 15-20 minutes apiece before switching to another similar posture. You can do a lot of standing in a session if you like, but it's healthier to switch 'em around every so often instead of holding the same posture for an hour or so.

eastpaw,

Could you elaborate on what you mean by putting your weight into the back of your knee please? Technically, there's not really a way to do this anatomically that I am aware of, so perhaps you mean something other than what I'm envisioning.

[bailewen]

I think he's referring to "the knee" as the entire joint from front to back. That would make the "back" of the "knee" really the place where the femur rests on the tibia as opposed to where the tendons strap the knee cap onto the front of things.

In practice that would mean being careful to try and let the big bones (tibia and femur) support your weight instead of "hanging" your weight on the tendons that connect those bones.

[AllanF]

'heard of'... yeah, but does anybody actually know anybody who has seriously damaged their knee through Tai Chi? Or are any of those people actually on this board?

I have recently done my lateral ligament and, as a result of NOT resting it sufficiently, my posterior cruciate ligament is also strained. The original injury i think was caused by taiji, form. Although we do a lot of tough push hands so i may have twisted it then. On saturday i know it was the push hands that finished me for a few months as it was all it did and for 2 days after i couldn't move my knee. So now i am trying to think of ways i can train and continue to develop connection without exacerbating the injury.

can you throw me any more pieces of advice? I hope this will benefit others too.

Always keep your toes and knee pointing into the same direction. Don't let your toes pointing into one direction while your knee is pointing into another direction. When you stay in the posture as shown below and you have intention to strike on your left hand, you will twist your right knee (if you don't have intention to strike with your left hand then there is no good reason to stand like this anyway).

That second photo is my first taiji teacher Ian Cameron in Edinburgh!

[eastpaw]

eastpaw,

Could you elaborate on what you mean by putting your weight into the back of your knee please? Technically, there's not really a way to do this anatomically that I am aware of, so perhaps you mean something other than what I'm envisioning.

I think he's referring to "the knee" as the entire joint from front to back. That would make the "back" of the "knee" really the place where the femur rests on the tibia as opposed to where the tendons strap the knee cap onto the front of things.

Omar's got it, I think. I'm talking about the top back part of the calf, more or less. What's the proper anatomical term for the area that I'm talking about?

In practice that would mean being careful to try and let the big bones (tibia and femur) support your weight instead of "hanging" your weight on the tendons that connect those bones.

That's essentially what happens, I guess? But of course it's not really so localized in execution. It has to do with shifting one's body weight onto the heel, putting the mind in the "back of the knee", pressing the head up, and "straightening" the spine.

Hm. How does one describe the danged concept verbally rather than directly through touch?

[Michael]

I would also recommend "rotating knees" as a warm-up exercise. Put your feet close together, bend over enough to place your palms lightly on your kneecaps, rotate knees clockwise about 30 seconds, then counter-clockwise about 30 seconds. Do it as a qigong method where the emphasis is on stimulating qi flow and certainly it is not a vigorous exercise. Don't put any weight at all on your knees with your palms. Also, strengthening your kidneys will benefit your knees, likewise not weakening your kidneys will benefit your knees. Sex, drugs, melamine, and heavy metals all weaken your kidneys. Heavy metal music is okay for the kidneys.

[GrahamB]

I would also recommend "rotating knees" as a warm-up exercise. Put your feet close together, bend over enough to place your palms lightly on your kneecaps, rotate knees clockwise about 30 seconds, then counter-clockwise about 30 seconds.

+1 on that. I always do this before doing tai ch form, or my knees hurt. So, I've probably answered my own question... insufficient warm ups....

[qiphlow]

I would also recommend "rotating knees" as a warm-up exercise. Put your feet close together, bend over enough to place your palms lightly on your kneecaps, rotate knees clockwise about 30 seconds, then counter-clockwise about 30 seconds. Do it as a qigong method where the emphasis is on stimulating qi flow ..

that doesn't sound like it would stimulate me at all.

[Chris McKinley]

eastpaw,

RE: "Omar's got it, I think. I'm talking about the top back part of the calf, more or less. What's the proper anatomical term for the area that I'm talking about?". It's not about finding the correct term; it's just that doing what you are saying is technically physically impossible in that you can't remove the quads, their tendons and the patella (kneecap) from the equation. Focusing on leening back, in a sense, so that your weight is over your heels does reduce the sheer forces across the patella, but not enough to make a difference one way or another. The real factors that determines the amount of sheer force in play are the weight of the person above the knees and the angle of the knee joint.

As to warming up, rotation does nearly nothing at all. Not only is the knee not a rotational joint, it doesn't have any significant blood supply to create hydrostatic stability. Instead, you are far better off warming up the quads directly by doing slow-to-medium full-range bends and/or some light running or walking to bring blood to the muscles and thereby stabilize them via hydrostatic stability, recruit sufficient muscle fibers to avoid overstressing any of them, and increase elasticity of the fibers to prevent injury.

[cerebus]

I would also recommend "rotating knees" as a warm-up exercise. Put your feet close together, bend over enough to place your palms lightly on your kneecaps, rotate knees clockwise about 30 seconds, then counter-clockwise about 30 seconds. Do it as a qigong method where the emphasis is on stimulating qi flow ..

that doesn't sound like it would stimulate me at all.

That probably WOULD stimulate me... I mean, considering what I have that hangs down around knee-level....

[Josh Lerner]

One of the problems with taijiquan is that people often develop trigger points in the quadriceps (especially rectus femoris and vastus lateralis). This does two things - it refers pain down to the kneecap, and the trigger points add tension in the muscle. Most people also have a relatively weak inner quad (vastus medialis, the hump on the lower inside part of the thigh above the knee), so the excess tension in the outer quad and the weakness in the inner quad cause problems with the kneecap tracking correctly. Or possibly not - I was talking with some physical therapists recently, and the idea that muscular imbalance in the quad keeps the kneecap from tracking correctly is being questioned. But even if it's not actually a problem with the effect on the kneecap, it causes pain, so you need to make sure that the quads are balanced regardless. Which for most people usually means that you need to strengthen the inner quads and relax and stretch the outer quads. Or massage them - find places in the quad which, when you press them firmly, cause pain to refer down to the knee. And personally, I found hindu squats to be the best thing I ever did for my knees, probably because they both a) work the quads through a full range of motion, which you often don't do in taijiquan, and b) seem to work the inner and outer quads equally. Trigger point release, either manually or by acupuncture, works wonders in a relatively short period of time.

As for bagua, when I did it briefly years ago, I noticed that both myself and others like me who had tight hip joints, with limited internal rotation, tended to have a problem with circle walking. For people like us who can't rotate the knee inwards much when we step, we would plant the heel and then torque the knee over the heel in order to get the internal rotation at the hip and the angle of the foot we wanted. Bad idea - after developing some knee problems from that, I had to retrain myself to put the foot down flat in one position and not torque it at all, even if it meant that I wasn't getting the angle I wanted. But then I stopped doing bagua.

Josh

[Ian]

First make sure your knees are working properly.

Use a marker pen, draw a dot in the center of your kneecap, and a dot in the center of the upper arch or your foot, where your arch meets your shin. Do this on both legs.

Now stand in front of a mirror the way you're used to standing. If the dots aren't aligned, you need to get your posture fixed.

Some people just shouldn't be doing MAs in the first place.

[Ian]

Re: rotating the knee.

As Chris said, the knee is a hinge joint, not a rotational joint.

You can rotate it very slightly, but do that while supporting your body weight and you're asking for trouble.

Don't twist the knee, even if you're twisting your body.

[Michael]

I would also recommend "rotating knees" as a warm-up exercise. Put your feet close together, bend over enough to place your palms lightly on your kneecaps, rotate knees clockwise about 30 seconds, then counter-clockwise about 30 seconds. Do it as a qigong method where the emphasis is on stimulating qi flow ..

that doesn't sound like it would stimulate me at all.

Listen honey, if I did it, you would be stimulated. Very stimulated. Unlike Ian and Chris, I'm exceptionally internal.

[Dmitri]

Run, qiphlow, RUN!!!!