Key tips for Avoiding "Tai Chi Knee" (Or in my case, Bagua)

[Alexander]

First make sure your knees are working properly.

Use a marker pen, draw a dot in the center of your kneecap, and a dot in the center of the upper arch or your foot, where your arch meets your shin. Do this on both legs.

Now stand in front of a mirror the way you're used to standing. If the dots aren't aligned, you need to get your posture fixed.

Some people just shouldn't be doing MAs in the first place.

My right knee is very knock-kneed, and my right hip is very tight. These cause my right ankle to not land flat and my foot is rotated inwards to a certain degree. Strange for a 22 year old, and honestly I don't know how they happened. But right now I'm using the Egoscue e-cises to try and get those sorted out. But it's generally only my left knee that bothers me while circle walking.

[C.J.Wang]

Alexander, send a PM to Dr. Kenneth Fish ( a forum member here). He is a chiropractor with decades of experience in CMA. I am sure he'll be able to help you out.

[taiwandeutscher]

And pulling softly the patella in warming-up, like I saw with many prof. tennis players?
Was recommended by a M. D., who did it with static calve pressing forward (hand keeps foot bend upwards in the back) and pulling the whole leg to the back (isotonic and isometric).

[Michael]

Well here goes nothing. Chris and Ian, you both know a lot more than me about anatomy and what was once called "kinesiology", so I don't doubt anything you said on that front regarding the knee, hinge joints, etc., and I don't disregard it. But from an energetic perspective, every major joint is a nexus of qi meridians and the rotating knees exercise is time-tested, proven to be helpful and safe. So just to repeat, when done as an energy exercise it is quite good for the knees.

To give an example of what I'm talking about, although I'm certain you'll have many valid reasons for disagreeing and perhaps even poo-pooing me, and Interloper will probably help out , sometimes your knees are cold and sometimes not, both in the same ambient environmental conditions. Why? Because of variations in qi flow through the knee, which is something that is directly affected by the rotating knees exercise.

[Kevin_Wallbridge]

In terms of what body sense you are looking for I would avoid trying to do anything with the knee itself. If you focus on the relationship between the weight from your hip to the arch of your foot the knee withh be taken care of in context. When we say "the knee is a weight transference joint" keep in mind where the transfer is going from and going to. This means the knee functions in a relationship between hip and foot. If the weight from your hip always lands within the "tripod" of the foot (inside ball/outside ball/heel) the alignment will be fine. If the inside ball of the foot has a greater amount of pressure, the knee is tracking inside, no need to look, etc.

[Ian]

Michael,

I'm only talking about how to use the knee in movement, not energetics.

If you're going to do a lot of low stance work e.g. horse stance, snake creeps down.... PLUS weight transfer, opening and closing your hip joints, twisting your body etc. then you had better understand how your knees are supposed to work.

Even Hong junsheng (Chen fake's disciple) said knees should only move up and down.

[Michael]

That makes perfect sense. My point about rotating knees is that this apparently physical exercise, that is obviously contrary to how the knee is normally used, enhances qi flow so that the movement happens properly and without pain. There's a direct relationship between qi flow and proper function of the knee, between the energetic and the physical.

[Dmitri]

In terms of what body sense you are looking for I would avoid trying to do anything with the knee itself. If you focus on the relationship between the weight from your hip to the arch of your foot the knee withh be taken care of in context. When we say "the knee is a weight transference joint" keep in mind where the transfer is going from and going to. This means the knee functions in a relationship between hip and foot. If the weight from your hip always lands within the "tripod" of the foot (inside ball/outside ball/heel) the alignment will be fine. If the inside ball of the foot has a greater amount of pressure, the knee is tracking inside, no need to look, etc.

Kevin just kneed the correct in the grouch.

+1

[middleway]

I actually would say avoid Ba Gua or Taiji form altogether for a month or so ... just do the nei gung or single movement repetition and start to do squats, non weighted, then weighted, then supported pistols, then pistols.

This improved my knee stability and hip strength infinitely better than actually continuing through form or walking. Personally i found that once a problem started in walking or forms it was very hard to adjust yourself to resolve it without a teacher and proper guidance so i would have to wait till i saw my teacher again and get corrections.

Pistols, Squats etc sorted out my legs entirely. then when i went back to the circle walking after about a month or so the problem was solved, my hips were more loose and relaxed and i was better able to keep alignments ... the added bonus was the boosted leg strength and endurance. Personally i have an issue with my ankles due to problem i had at birth which was the cause of alot of the problems. I have learnt to get around this however and my knees and hips have never been stronger.

Just a thought.

Cheers
Chris

[Alexander]

I actually would say avoid Ba Gua or Taiji form altogether for a month or so ... just do the nei gung or single movement repetition and start to do squats, non weighted, then weighted, then supported pistols, then pistols.

This improved my knee stability and hip strength infinitely better than actually continuing through form or walking. Personally i found that once a problem started in walking or forms it was very hard to adjust yourself to resolve it without a teacher and proper guidance so i would have to wait till i saw my teacher again and get corrections.

Pistols, Squats etc sorted out my legs entirely. then when i went back to the circle walking after about a month or so the problem was solved, my hips were more loose and relaxed and i was better able to keep alignments ... the added bonus was the boosted leg strength and endurance. Personally i have an issue with my ankles due to problem i had at birth which was the cause of alot of the problems. I have learnt to get around this however and my knees and hips have never been stronger.

Just a thought.

Cheers
Chris

Hey Chris,

Yeah, I have heard things like that fix the knees of many people. But honestly, I was lifting weights and working out my legs long before I began Bagua.. which is why I was so surprised. I'll still give it a shot though -- take it easy on the circle walking and work on some hip and quad flexibility.

[middleway]

Hey Alexander,

Sure thing. when walking the circle it only has to be a little bit out to mess things up, been there mate.

I think doing nice slow straight squats un weighted with good breathing is a good place to start. Especially trying to do them without any excess tension in the body and being sure not to let the knees wobble laterally.

Hope it all works out for you.

Cheers
Chris

[MartialDev]

Bending the knee straight forward beyond the tip of the toe does not injure it. Other styles of martial arts do this all the time. I did it for many years, my teachers did it for many decades.

Sending force through the side of knee--in standing, walking, pushing or otherwise--will stress it in a bad way. This must be understood precisely, because even if your posture is "picture-perfect" with knee and toe aligned (e.g. on the sagittal plane), you can still hurt yourself by using force incorrectly.

[Michael]

Bending the knee straight beyond the toe does not injure it.

Not trying to nitpick you, just a bit confused. Writing about detailed physical movement, especially without pictures, is not easy.