Yin style - BaGua 64 roads

[Jingang]

I've been flipping around in my book collection and found a book called "Ba gua san shou" (八卦散手) written by Jiang haoquan and Fei xirong. The book is about 64 short combinations in Yin fu's style. Did any of you even hear about this kind of practice, origins (Shaolin?) and if there is a video of this 64 roads?

[cerebus]

Hmmm.... I say you should scan the book & make a link available so we can see it...

[Chris McKinley]

Jian Hao-quan was one of my teacher's teachers. I believe it is through him that I was exposed to the Zhang style material that is part of my favorite aspects of Baguazhang. Even though this is Yin style material, if it's coming from Jiang Hao-quan I'd be interested in looking at it if possible.

[SPJ]

http://www.baguazhang.cn/post/97.asp

according to this ba gua zhang book review blog.

the 64 sets were compiled later on and not directly from yin fu.

unfortunately, all the passing of moves/techniques were not recorded or written down till the initial years of republic in 1910s.

no way to verify these sets were indeed from yin fu. more than likely they are not.

[SPJ]

to download the book.

http://yupiaoer.qupan.com/2298460.html

[D_Glenn]

According to my source Jiang Haoquan was the real deal back in China and also possibly that his Yin style bagua is correct, which would be bagua sanshou from YF to Yin Yu Zhang to Jiang.

Without really seeing it I'm taking a guess but I wonder if it's similar to Liu Yun Qiao's stuff from YF to GBT?

Edited -- wrong link before.




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[SPJ]

Bob or Count have more info on this.

[cerebus]

to download the book.

http://yupiaoer.qupan.com/2298460.html

Cool, thanks! Ummmm.... what do I click on to download it?

[SPJ]

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6015

use the same instruction from the other thread.

[cerebus]

http://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6015

use the same instruction from the other thread.

Thanks!!

[count]

Bob or Count have more info on this.

Is it the same Jiang Hao Quan who teaches bagua in Monterey Park, in the same spot as DeVere's old class? If so, he teaches a style of Yin Bagua that is hybrid. Taught at the Nanjing Institute and was somewhat of a government sponsored san shao fighter. The last time I saw him, he was in his late 80's and sill teaching shuai chiao, and throwing around guys one quarter his age. That was over 10 years ago but I still get mail from his yahoo group, so I guess he's still teaching today. Must be well into his 90's now.

http://www.jiangschool.com/index.htm

In any case, I have not read the book so I really don't have any info on this. As far as the video of my old classmates learning our version of 64 palms 2-man set, It's not relevant to the topic and only similar to Jiang's version in form.

[D_Glenn]

The book is about 64 short combinations in Yin fu's style. Did any of you even hear about this kind of practice, origins (Shaolin?)

Yin Fu style is known for the 64 Chuan Zhang (penetrating palms) which are basically his "combat bagua" version of DHC's 8 animals or 8 strategies multiplied with 8 variations of the 'penetrating palm' making 64. These forms were the basics and the only one's Yin Fu allowed to be practiced in public but the way the animal strategies and applications are hidden inside the forms it's more like Yin Fu intentionally wanted people to see and think his style was done in a certain way but when actually applied it changes drastically. The forms are very linear and rigid looking but actually the arms should be soft as a rope and in application it becomes very loose and circular. The nature of how these forms and techniques are designed is for getting the beginner up to a high level of fighting skill in a short amount of time, and where the 'whole-body' skills would develop later.

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[edededed]

Hmm - interesting, I am familiar with some of the 64 palms (assuming that it is the same as the 64 palms taught in Yin Yuzhang, Cao Zhongsheng, etc. lines) - could you perhaps elaborate on the relationships to the animals? (I.e., the first 8 palms of the 64 chuangzhang should then be lion, I guess? Which means it has certain strategies there? The next 8 maybe snake?)

[D_Glenn]

First I should point out that the 64 penetrating palms aren't a variation that Yin Fu created as it's actually what DHC did and that's why it's called 'baguazhang orthodox penetrating palms'. Everything can come off of the penetrating palm which is why 'chuan' is in all the different bagua styles. Every strike from the 8 animals in baguazhang can be changed into from the 'chuan zhang' posture which is also why all the styles have the old 8 palms which are postures from the 8 animals.
Contrary to what is said Yin Fu only practiced a martial art called 'snake tounge striking' before he challenged DHC and became his disciple. This and possibly because of Yin's body type are why he fought with the Snake. In distinguishing different Yin Fu lines Men Baozhen only fought with the Lion palm which is very hard or what other lines dubbed "large frame" while Gong Bao Tian focused more on Yin Fu's Snake which is more soft and flowing and what they call "small frame". The 18 lohan forms were a creation of DHC's to teach to the aristocrats of the palace and were passed on to Yin Fu and GBT because they took over the teaching positions but in some lines are not distinguished from the actual 'chuan zhang bagua'.

The order of the 64 would be more like 1- doing 'lian huan zhang' (lion), then 2- 'shun shi zhang' (snake), and so on. The actual 8 methods though I'm not sure on or their order, there are different penetrating palms depending on the shapes and usage like flicking, slicing, stabbing, chopping... and there also is 'chui' or hammerfist but it also seems to borrow the animals 8 strikes, like it changes to lion's xiao (slicing) or when doing dragon it changes into 'dai and ling etc.

So the penetrating palms are really what links everything together and you would say that DHC taught Cheng Ting Hua the penetrating palm with an emphasis on Dragon or the strategy of 'Ping Tuo'.

Yin Fu though seemed to want to hide the animals and their strategies deeper inside the forms. There's a saying something like "You can learn my movements and forms but if I teach you the strategy behind them then you can steal my art."

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[edededed]

Hmm - well, I can take the first 8 and perhaps see chui and xiao... not sure about tiao, pi (but maybe) - are these all from the lion?

Actually, in the 64 palms, half of them are kicking techniques (so the first 8 are palms, the next 8 are kicks, and so on). Does that mean that snake (for example) is all kicking?

As for the old 8 palms - do you mean that each palm should correlate to a specific animal? Cheng style is well-known, but would that work for Liang style, Fan style, etc.? If you have any examples, that would be nice.