Fa Jin - A Viable combat skill?

[Alexander]

I seem to see some disconnect here.

Okay so some of you are probably going to say "define Fa jin". I'm just going based on what I've seen -- a whole body jerk, then snap, and the energy of the strike terminates as a shockwave through whatever body part is doing the strike. I guess that's Fajin that terminates in the other person's body. But I guess there's Fa jin like you see in Taiji where the person's body gets thrown?

Maybe I just have a very narrow perspective of what this means.

But Even if you train like that for years, you can't practice on a person for risk of damaging internals - so how are you going to be able to apply it in combat?

Additionally, isn't it a fine (very fine?) motor skill - making it even harder to do under stress once the heart rate rises? I'm just wondering if it's even worth investing extra time outside of practice (e.g. if you have a fa-jin strike in your form, like in Chen Taiji, practicing it for an extra hour outside of the form). Unfortunately this may fall into the "too deadly to try on you" category, so I'm sorry if this thread gets dumped.

Just wondering about some opinions; hit me up!

[TaoJoannes]

fa jin is nothing more than the sudden issuance of energy, it can translate into a strike, throw, joint crank, what have you.

As I understand it within the context of Yang style taijiquan, at least. Like a shark slowly circling in the water, fa jin would be a sudden strike the eat the fishes.

[bailewen]

I think you are over-complicating it.

Every single issue you raised applies to a boxer learning to throw a KO punch. You can't practice that on a person either without risking internal damage. In fact, many boxers have internal damage. Getting KO'd does that. A boxer also has to apply his KO punch in a high stress situation.

You practice fa-jing with whatever methods you want. Depending on the kind of jin, the angle, the direction etc. you could practice it on a punching bag, a tree, in the air or on a person where you just maybe "pull" your punches a bit or express it in a non-vital way eg. on his chest, arm or hip or whatever. Just don't fa jin on his face (insert crude joke here) or stomach, kidneys etc.

[johnwang]

There are difference between being able to:

- Fajin into the thin air vs. Fajin into a human body/heavy bag.
- Fajin vs. create a chance to Fajin.
- Fajin when you have all the time and distance in the world vs. Fajin in short period of time and short distance.

[edededed]

Different styles have different ways of doing fajin. The hold-release version is most common, some (xinyi) use overt spinal waves, others (bagua) use "invisible fajin" that is quite difficult to understand.

[C.J.Wang]

Invisible fajin in Bagua is an interesting way of putting it. It's more an-jin, or obscure power, to me. But beware that not every style of Bagua focuses on smooth, coiling, and continous an-jin a la Cheng style. Yin style, for example, uses quite a bit of spinal waves as part of its fajin method.

[Ian]

Alexander, I'd recommend you listen to John on this one.

Btw, you can't practice fajin on your training partners? Then how do you know whether it works? Whenever I ask CMA guys to hit me, 90% of the time they say they can't because it'd kill me. I don't trust CMA classes that experience impact once every few years.

[johnwang]

Exponational speed Fajin is not the only method. A bulldozer Jin (constant speed and not exponational speed) is effective in certain throws such as 轟(Hong) - herd.

[bruce]

There are difference between being able to:

- Fajin into the thin air vs. Fajin into a human body/heavy bag.
- Fajin vs. create a chance to Fajin.
- Fajin when you have all the time and distance in the world vs. Fajin in short period of time and short distance.

in my practice it is essential to hit something other than air or you will create a false sense of skill.

think of a common clinch such as in a mma fight or a bar scuffle which are similar in that you are close and you are touching and maybe being grabbed this i think is a great place to study how to create a chance to "snap" as i call it.

in my practice so far i have good luck with short snap but with long i feel i might damage my hand/wrist sometimes.

[bruce]

But Even if you train like that for years, you can't practice on a person for risk of damaging internals - so how are you going to be able to apply it in combat?

as with any type of strike you need to go easy on your training partners or you will run out of training partners.

Additionally, isn't it a fine (very fine?) motor skill

i think like many skills at a higher level very fine motor skills are used but this does not mean that gross motor movements are not sometimes more useful.

[Sprint]

I'd say that fa jin is gross motor movement rather than fine. Or more precisely specific gross motor movement. The specificity of the movement raises the skill content beyond simple brute force. The gross or whole body aspect seperates it from fine manual dexterity, which as we all know goes to shit when the doodoo hits the fan.

On a separate point unless you are constantly practising your fajin as a solo exercise and in use/application then you are kind of wasting your time. As for practising on people, you can turn it down so that your push, for example, only lifts them slightly off the ground, as opposed to completely pole-axing them.

[Daniel]

Edited: Never mind.

D.

Sarcasm. Oh yeah, like that´ll work.

[Alexander]

Alexander, I'd recommend you listen to John on this one.

Btw, you can't practice fajin on your training partners? Then how do you know whether it works? Whenever I ask CMA guys to hit me, 90% of the time they say they can't because it'd kill me. I don't trust CMA classes that experience impact once every few years.

Yeah I totally agree. But I'm talking about the "metal" fa jin someone was referring to - that terminates inside the body. E.g. a shockwave palm strike.

I guess I could still totally try it on, and practice with, a partner to see what happens. I'd prefer to test it on things since I'm pretty fond of poo poo-ing the "too deadly" crowd.

If you can't use it full speed, full strength, full contact in practice you're not going to get a chance to in combat. My first sifu used to have us wear glasses and then have our fighting stance and try to throw full speed spear hand pokes at each others' eyes. Fun stuff.

[everything]

This guy looks pretty fucking good punching air.


getting out of holds, pins, doing throws is also practice-able.

[Alexander]

This guy looks pretty fucking good punching air.


getting out of holds, pins, doing throws is also practice-able.

And Tyson is 1 in a million. He was a born fighter -- he enjoys hurting people.. he's truly messed up in the head .