Questions regarding Fantasy and Reality...no not porn.

[Dr.Rob]

So...my little sister after 8 years of Chen style TaiChi @ http://www.taishanclub.com/ takes it upon herself to have a private lesson from the great visiting Grand Master Chen Zhenglei ( ) Which cost around $330 CD for 2 hours.

She asked several questions which for the some reason he did not answer...(fajing, applications)...because she is not his disciple...I reckon? They did push hands which left her spinning on the floor several times. But what he did do is clean up her forms. Which she uses for competition. She left feeling a bit hallow and upset. Like she did not get her dollars worth I guess?...

Question

You got 4 hours on a Sunday...you have the money but it is not the object.

1.Fantasy. Who in the history of Martial Arts, Dead would you want to learn from?
2. What would you ask to be taught?
3. How much would you be willing to pay?

again but with a touch of present...and truth...

1.Reality. Who in the history of Martial Arts, alive would you want to learn from?
2. What would you ask to be taught?
3. How much would you be willing to pay?

The reason I ask..is to make you think and assess what is important, so if the sitituation does arise you don't screw it up like my little sis.

[meeks]

hmmm.... looking at the video, he's not much different than half the guys in some of the local parks here in Vancouver - but apparently we import some of the best masters and grandmasters based on sheer volume.

Fantasy:
1 Wang Wen Kui (for his bad-assness) or Cheng Ting Hua
2 Taught? Nothing. Just wanna train with them.
3 Pay? I'm no longer on a question for knowledge through finance.

Reality:
1 My last Shifu - Yang Guo Tai in about his 30s when he was going outside the Bagua school walls to go kickin' the bejeezuz out of everyone in the public parks that claimed to be a badass.
2 Same stuff I've learned, only to train harder with him as a younger man
3 again - I truly believe you shouldn't have to purchase knowledge other than basic monthly dues.

there's really no reason to pay someone exhorbitant fees (ex: $330 for 2 hours) because they really aren't going to teach you anything you won't get from your fellow classmates for free. More often than not, especially in the taiji realm, you'll get a form correction you didn't ask for. Unless the guy pulls you aside, puts your hands on his guts and starts rocking things out by showing you how to move/train internally you're getting a smoke n mirrors act to separate you from your money. If you trained long and hard enough at your form you wouldn't really need a correction - you'd figure it out for yourself. And if you learned techniques BEFORE form you'd realize the angle of your finger, elevation of your elbow, positioning of your toe is irrelevant since techniques are contextual - is he tall? is he short? is he 3 inches to my right and I need to compensate by altering the angle of my arm? Forms should be about 'how did I move to get my arm there?' not 'how high should my arm be when I arrive in this position?'

on a serious note Dr. Rob - if your sister ever makes it from Ontario to Vancouver tell her to contact me. I'll give her a few years worth of internal advice and training exercises that won't cost her a dime.

[Dr.Rob]

You are clever brother..I guess the money thing is a huge issue ( red envelops and birthday gifts included)....hind sight is always 20/20 in regards on how you used your time when you were young.

[GrahamB]

I truly believe you shouldn't have to purchase knowledge other than basic monthly dues.

Amen, and +1,000

This is an ideal, for sure, but it is not naive. I'm sick of famous names and money. Most of them are not worth the price of their visas, skilled neither as teachers or fighters. Many people will continue to pay, of course, hoping for secrets or longing to be touched by the aura of the famous name (skill by association). Let them kiss the silk-pyjama'ed asses of their gurus. The most significant insights and the best training tips I've ever gotten have come from people who absolutely refused payment, or at most wanted a drink (or several) and chat-time post-training.

Tom and Meeks have kick the correct's ass all the way back to China! Nice to hear it.

b.t.w. fellas, I hope you are both still down for my $eminar on how to astral project your Tai Chi energy twin? It's expensive, but your energy twin will love you for it....

[mrtoes]

I think that it's only worth paying to have private lessons with your own regular teacher, because he will be able to give you material that will make sense to you and you can work on in the future. It's like doing seminars vs regular lessons - interesting and gives perspective but usually of little lasting benefit unless it's directly relevant to your current training.

I think that $165/hr is ridiculous. I would not pay more than half that for private tuition even from a master, especially for form corrections! Actually wait... I think I'd pay that to learn from Dong Hai-Chuan

Matthew.

[Chris McKinley]

I would have paid good money to see your sister kick Chen's ass for ripping her off about knowing how to fight.

[meeks]

b.t.w. fellas, I hope you are both still down for my $eminar on how to astral project your Tai Chi energy twin? It's expensive, but your energy twin will love you for it....

LMAO!!

[Bhassler]

Lots of people like to bag on how much seminars cost, but it might be informative to actually do the math as far as costs, lost wages, etc. and figure out how much you yourself would need to charge if doing seminars was included as part of your primary source of income. Also factor in how much professionals in other fields make. An electrical engineer can easily make $80,000, and how many good electrical engineers are there as compared to genuinely good IMA guys?

As far as the content of said seminars, at least in my area whenever one of the big Chen style guys have come they've been asked to do things like a basic silk-reeling workshop. Did they really need to fly a guy all the way from China for that?

I agree that your sister probably got ripped off, but it's not always as simple as someone trying to con people out of their money, and seminar organizers should probably be held accountable as well as the presenter.

[SPJ]

how much can people gain from a few hours seminar or workshop, well not much.

the cost of attending depending on the facilities.

if it is a stage/raise platform in an open ground, the cheapest one. In Taiwan, it is actually free. the sponsor organization picks up the travelling, hotel, food etc and compensation for the presenter. this format would reach the widest audience or max effect.

if it is in an hotel, wow, the cost of renting the lobby, suite, -- can be high. so the cost is divided by attendee.-- audience would be limited who can afford.

that is the reality, too.

most people would say that yes I met so and so in person. that is about it.

as far as question and answer, sometimes it is not possible to answer adequately with the time allotted, so usually the sponsoring organisation will continue to collect questions in writing from attendee, they should be answered in the mail or email later.--

--

[Chris McKinley]

Brian,

RE: "Lots of people like to bag on how much seminars cost, but it might be informative to actually do the math as far as costs, lost wages, etc. and figure out how much you yourself would need to charge if doing seminars was included as part of your primary source of income.". I'm all for being open and honest about what costs go into producing a seminar and in making a fair profit. A fair profit is to be expected since if all the seminar instructor did was break even on costs, then he still loses time away from other income-generating work and it wouldn't be worth it for him to do it. IME, when coupled with transparency about the rest of the costs, people don't begrudge a seminar giver from earning a fair wage for his time, knowledge and instruction.

RE: "Also factor in how much professionals in other fields make. An electrical engineer can easily make $80,000, and how many good electrical engineers are there as compared to genuinely good IMA guys?". Unfortunately, this is a disingenuous argument. Not all professions are equally valuable, nor should they be made to be by artificially flattening the compensation we pay for them. In a free and fair market, what you have to offer is worth precisely what other people are willing to pay you for it....no more and no less. No one is "owed" a certain level of income intrinsically, regardless of whether he has chosen a given pursuit to be his primary or sole source of income or not. He must convince others of the value of what he has to offer. If he cannot do that, he deserves nothing more.

Personally, I wouldn't attend a seminar where no idea was given as to the content of what was to be learned and people were expected to show up based purely on the cult of personality of the instructor's name. I wouldn't attend a Dan Inosanto seminar without knowing an idea of what was to be presented, and Inosanto could not only lay waste on a bad day to any Chen player you placed in front of him, he's also known for giving some of the best value in seminars of anyone in the business.

That said, if Chen guy X was up front about what could be expected either in seminar format or private lessons, and provided exactly that, then there is no room for complaint. Caveat emptor and all.

[Bhassler]

In a free and fair market, what you have to offer is worth precisely what other people are willing to pay you for it....no more and no less. No one is "owed" a certain level of income intrinsically, regardless of whether he has chosen a given pursuit to be his primary or sole source of income or not. He must convince others of the value of what he has to offer. If he cannot do that, he deserves nothing more.

I agree wholeheartedly, which is why I (sort of) take umbrage when I hear people bitch about martial artists who actually try to make a good living at doing what they do and then those same people turn around and talk about how great and valuable this stuff is. Honestly, a good part of making money at anything is having the balls to ask for it. If we as a community want martial arts to be respected then at some point we have to move past the self-deprecation and act to others like there's some real value in it. People drop $25/hour for a group Pilates class or $75 for a private session a couple of times a week with their personal trainers, and as a professional in the industry I can say for certain that there are teachers in my area offering more and better teaching than 95% of all the Pilates classes out there who are charging $115/mo for unlimited classes and they're up at the high end of the price range for MA. Definitely part of it has to do with a lack of any kind of standards or quality control for MA teaching, but a lot also has to do with a sort of dysfunctional mindset that paying someone for their services somehow corrupts the True Spirit(TM) of MA.

I had my rant for the day and I feel much better now....

[GrahamB]

In a free and fair market, what you have to offer is worth precisely what other people are willing to pay you for it....no more and no less. No one is "owed" a certain level of income intrinsically, regardless of whether he has chosen a given pursuit to be his primary or sole source of income or not. He must convince others of the value of what he has to offer. If he cannot do that, he deserves nothing more.

I agree wholeheartedly, which is why I (sort of) take umbrage when I hear people bitch about martial artists who actually try to make a good living at doing what they do and then those same people turn around and talk about how great and valuable this stuff is. Honestly, a good part of making money at anything is having the balls to ask for it. If we as a community want martial arts to be respected then at some point we have to move past the self-deprecation and act to others like there's some real value in it. People drop $25/hour for a group Pilates class or $75 for a private session a couple of times a week with their personal trainers, and as a professional in the industry I can say for certain that there are teachers in my area offering more and better teaching than 95% of all the Pilates classes out there who are charging $115/mo for unlimited classes and they're up at the high end of the price range for MA. Definitely part of it has to do with a lack of any kind of standards or quality control for MA teaching, but a lot also has to do with a sort of dysfunctional mindset that paying someone for their services somehow corrupts the True Spirit(TM) of MA.

I had my rant for the day and I feel much better now....

That's well written and you make a good point. There's something else to consider though.

In a yoga class or in a session with a personal trainer, they coach you through a series of exercises - it's an exercise - the results are immediate and obvious. The teacher can take you to the next breakthrough, the next level of achievement. In this context it makes sense - you pay $x and you get out $x worth of exercise.

With internal Chinese martial arts it seems to me that after learning whatever form is taught, the vast majority of the 'work' is done by the student, usually on their own outside class (if they ever want to get anywhere- they need to practice the hell out of it and make their own breakthroughs outside of class). The teacher offers guidence, but sometimes one word said by the teacher, or a nudge in the right direction, at the right time is all they need to go off and discover something by themselves. I find it hard to understand how you can put a similar price on that to what you get from a yoga teacher or personal trainer. It just doesn't come in neat 'lessons sized' bundles. Sometimes you can 'plateau' for years before you make the next breakthrough. Obviously, some teachers solve this problem by just moving you on to the next 'form' and on and on it goes without ever going anywhere...

I don't know what the answer is, but that's a particular puzzle I've not yet figured out.

I think Rex has it worked out though...

[Bhassler]

Mainstream exercise systems run the gamut from something very simple (push the damn weight up until you puke!) to being life-encompassing disciplines every bit as rich as the deepest IMA (e.g. yoga). Most people who make a career out of it have found something deeper than mechanical repetition of an exercise. Certainly some things are more discreet than others and can be viewed as a simple exercise that you know exactly what you've got and then you're done, but it may or may not be the case in a lot of instances. Certainly most people view their Pilates practice as more of a lifestyle thing than simple exercise, and I have no doubt that yoga enthusiasts feel the same, and probably NIA fans and spinning junkies or whatever. There are no shortages of web pages dedicated to the Church of Iron, or other such terms for the weight-heads (Arnold Schwarzenegger wrote some brilliant articles back in the day that made weight training seem like a tremendously deep and empowering passtime-- he certainly seemed to benefit from it).

There's a big difference between the old-school (or perceived old-school) method of "stand in the corner one year, then thresh wheat until your hands are like knives," and leaving the student with something meaningful and substantive that they can work on that will allow the benefits of exploratory learning without spending weeks, months, or years of the students beating their heads against the wall. The greatest benefit behind leaving students time to practice on their own is not muscle memory or discipline, it is simply that things learned via personal discovery hold more meaning and more function than that which we are told to do. The chaos of fighting and all the unpredictable factors that go into it are not new phenomena to modern times, and many of the so called esoteric or evasive teaching methods for which CMA is famous are not really esoteric or evasive at all-- they become that way when the outline of the pedagogy remains without an understanding of the intent behind it, much like a form without applications can become a meaningless dance.

Most of IMA-- including the deeper, subtler bits-- CAN come in a lesson-sized bundle. The problem is that creating said bundles sometimes ends up being more work than the instructor is willing or able to put into it. If I find something that can't be put in a bundle, I break it down to it's component pieces until it is bundle-able. FWIW, I think Chris McKinley and Shooter are the two guys who stand out to me as being the most clear and concrete on their teaching methods. Their views on MA in general and how they present themselves can (and does) rub people the wrong way sometimes, but as far as effective teaching methodology and their ability to express online what they do and why, I think these guys have come up with pure gold a few times over the years.

The other part of the question is framing how we present ourselves so that people understand the value of what we're teaching and why it is that we teach it that way. Relying upon "that's the way my teacher taught it and his teacher before him" is in my mind no better than saying "this form has been around for hundreds of years, of course you can fight with it!" It's definitely a work in progress, and something that someone could refine for years in the same way they refine their MA practice-- what bugs me is the complacence with which many people approach their teaching. Even those who work at it are often unaware that teaching itself is as much an art as the fighting systems they practice, or never bother to actually get educated on any of the many ways to go about teaching. If someone is a "professional MA teacher," being professional includes both the MA and the teaching, and both are really important.

So with the state of MA being what it is, I can see why people are reluctant to shell out the bucks when there are so many who lack the martial or the art or the teaching or all three, but at the same time anyone who's gone to the effort to put the whole package together should have no problem asking for money commensurate with other professionals, and we as a community should honor those people as examples of what our art/industry/passion needs.

[taiwandeutscher]

Difficult topic with 2 sides.

First, in Taiwan Chen seminars from the big 4 (know only 2 comming, though) were not free in the last 10 years, but really expensive, for a weekend or 5 days (up to 10000 NT$). Many Taiwanese participants were pissed of 2, 3 years ago, when one of the big 4 started to brag about how many million US$ he had made the year before. I wouldn't pay such high fees, if I didn't have a closer connection with such teachers, seeing them atleast several months a year, in their home schools and abroad. But it is anybodys free decision to attend or not, right?

On the other hand, I never heard that any of the 4 marketed their privat sessions to anyone, who didn't want them, and it seems that the little sis here wanted such lessons for herself, not CZL selling private classes to her, right? Maybe those famous teachers have such high fees in order not to have to teach too much privately?

And from a professional training point of view: I trained hard for 12 years at university for a PhD in my field of expertice. When I work for unknown, unrelated persons or institutions, I earn more than CZL, without any hesitation. My working hrs are not many, and I feel that I deserve it, lol. Did those masters also train hard and maybe rightly ask such fees?

Of course, working for known people, under priveliged or friends, I always give special rates, according circumstances, and sometimes, na, in fact often, I work for free. Not sure how close indoor desciples are treated by those famous 4, though.

[everything]

Question

You got 4 hours on a Sunday...you have the money but it is not the object.

1.Fantasy. Who in the history of Martial Arts, Dead would you want to learn from?
2. What would you ask to be taught?
3. How much would you be willing to pay?

1. hmm, Dong Hai Chuan, Wang Xiangzhai, Yang Luchan, Yue Fei.
2. bagua, yiquan, taiji, xingyiquan ... how my shenfa is all screwed up and what to focus on for now, for me, personally (this is all fantasy right)
3. a lot, I guess.

1. Bruce Lee, just to shoot the shit and hear him say "be like water my friend".
1. Kimura, judo and his nhb.

Alive:
1. Fedor, Anderson Silva, Lyoto Machida from mma. Roy Jones, Jr. and Tyson from boxing. Marcelo Garcia from bjj.
2. whatever the specialty.
3. a lot, I guess.

1. Via posts on RSF, Sam Chin, Yang Hai, BKF if he still taught, probably that Aunkai guy, Dan Harden, johnwang, various of you here, and a bunch of others recommended here on "internal" whose names I forget.
2. whatever: internal shenfa, shuai jiao from john wang
3. a lot, I guess.

Alright, this question is too hard. I would try to do one of the above, mainly for inspiration, despite things being 1% inspiration 99% perspiration - maybe, maybe I would do the perspiration afterwards and make some progress...