Horizontal fist vs. vertical fist

[johnwang]

The WC, Taiji, XingYi, ... all emphasis on the vertical fist. The long fist (LF) system also does that. If you train the long fist system and when you have reached to the high level, your entire horizontal fists will be converted into vertical fists. Here is a form did by the long fist GM Han Chin-Tang, you can see that he did not use any horizontal fist in that form at all.

http://johnswang.com/Han_si_lo_pen_da.WMV

What's you opinion about horizontal fist vs. vertical fist?

[Chris McKinley]

It's all a matter of the right tool for the job. A dropping rear overhand punch, the single most successful punch for single-punch knockouts in MMA, would be not only useless as a vertical fist, the angle of incident would virtually guarantee a phalanges fracture and soft tissue damage to the punching hand. Then again, punches in general are a poor tool for attacking the head above the neck and jawline.

IOW, there's no need to be overly simplistic or dogmatic about choosing your tools when common sense and reasoning will suffice quite well.

[C.J.Wang]

From Bagua's POV, horizontal and vertical fists are the expression of coiling, spiraling power at different stages. So depending on range, height level, and target, the fist can be vertical with thumb sideup, vertical with pinky sideup, horizontal with palm down, or horizontal with palm up -- or at any point in between the 4 types.

[SPJ]

it really depending on the conditions.

but in general, horizontal fist or ping quan 平拳 is used to go upward or downward.

vertical fist or zhi quan 直拳 is used to go forward.

[Mut]

where am I hitting? where my hands prior to hitting? once this is processed the right fist will hit. I don't care if it is vertical, horizontal or anywhere inbetween as long as it fits snug with the target and imparts my point of view

[SPJ]

one knuckle protruding fist

1. the index finger knuckle protruding; it is called the eagle beak, well there are also many other names.

2. the middle finger: it is called pheonix eye.

3. the pinkie knuckle out: --

--

usually, they are pointed strikes to soft spots such as pressure points in the midline of the body etc.

the pointed fist may also be used to "drill" into the pressure points. yes, you start with vertical fist upon contact you turn your fist clockwise and drill it forward using inch power. well some would say it is actually 2 "punches".

--

which is better, depending on the function and purpose.

[Andy_S]

I have lost the second knuckle on my right hand form hurling a horizontal-fist hook and catching the target with only the last two knucles. Although the hook is taught/practiced with a horizontal fist in many systems, I would strongly advise against in for the reason given.

[mrtoes]

There's horizontal face up and horizontal face down. I like to use horizontal strikes with the palm upwards when striking to the head, aka water fist, to make it easier to impact with the big two knuckles on each hand. Everything else is vertical. I'm too short to pull off horse (I assume the aforementioned "dropping rear overhand punch") which is the other case I'd go horizontal.

I thought most horizontal strikes are an artifact of punching with gloves (extra range)?

Matthew.

[edededed]

Hmm - perhaps vertical is better for some reason, I dunno!

I have seen some old branches of xingyiquan that retain the horizontal fist in archaic versions of some of the punchs (bengquan, paoquan).

So it seems that although many styles started with horizontal punch, they changed to vertical later on.

[Jonny]

If I hold out my arm in a horizontal fist, and have someone apply pressure on my forearm going downward, it's hard to keep my arm upright.

However, this test done with a vertical fist, it's alot easier and feels stronger.

I think the shoulder/deltoid area is a bit more stable in the vertical fist shape (more natural, if you observe how your arms naturally hang at your sides...)

But like someone said, the horizontal fist would be a better tool for some scenarios.

What do I know, I just like my palms

[Mut]

SPJ as far as I am aware in SPM the pheonix eye is the index knuckle protruding

[Doc Stier]

SPJ as far as I am aware in SPM the phoenix eye is the index knuckle protruding

Agreed. Quite so. This is also true in many of the older Hsing-Yi Chuan forms as well.

Regarding the original question on this thread, the type of fist used will be primarily dependent upon the random opportunity of an open target and the presenting angle of attack. As such, both fists are equally valuable and effective when used properly.

It's simply a matter of selecting the right tool for the job at hand according to circumstance.

[SPJ]

SPJ as far as I am aware in SPM the pheonix eye is the index knuckle protruding

yes. you are right.

In tong bei, we use the middle finger protruding fist. it is called penetrating bone fist or tou gu chui 透骨捶.

[Ralteria]

From my own experience in playing around with both fists, I've found the vertical fist can give you about an inch more of reach/penetration, from the way your wrist/elbow/shoulder aligns.

A non-issue for me at this point b/c I'm focusing on incorporating alot more palm striking, but I've always prefered the vertical fist for straight line and the horizontal for circular. Just seems to feel "right".

[mrtoes]

Don't you mean that the horizontal fist - palm facing down - gives you more reach? I thought that was the main reason why it was used in boxing. Maybe we're just confusing terms, I'd always prefer a near vertical fist for round strikes - aka bear from hsing i - because otherwise you're asking to impact with the smallest (weakest) knuckles of the hand which I have been told can be nasty - see what Andy said.

Matthew.