Getting noobs comfortable with sparring.

[Dmitri]

try starting slow and with out intent and build up. Essentially if you want people to spar who are not that way inclined you have to start real slow.

Yup, exactly what we do.

'feed' in a more 'boxing like' manner is handy because it is probably a closer approximation to how someone will try to throw a strike

That's exactly what I did in that case I mentioned earlier, FWIW... Just threw various kinds of common punches at the guy -- but HIS response wasn't from the boxing realm at all... His job was to try and continue to deal with those using good taijiquan. ("Try" being the key word... )

[neijia_boxer]

Why on earth would you be asking taiji people to 'bob and weave'? Isn't that exact motion fairly specific to a martial art from Europe? Beyond the issues of bad habits and unrealistic expectations inherent to sparring itself that are rarely addressed.. The goal isn't to have people boxing, it's to have them doing taiji movements under dynamic pressure. If the exercize is just trying to get people to move like boxers, then you'd be better off tuning up your forms work to be more dynamic and reactive.

yea - why don't you just teach them boxing? kinda sounds like 'we do taichi forms but fighting is san da'. they either learn to use taichi or they don't, but leave the Western stuff out of it or it's gonna look like a bad Jet Li movie (because he's done very few good ones).

cause we be training tai chi boxing killers, they gonna punch-stick- and slam yo pa-kua people to a ground and pound and not care if it looked like tai chi or not ...MMUUHAHAHAAHHAHAHAHA

John wang put the way i feel about it here:

If a boxing teacher teaches his students how to kick, or a Judo teacher teaches his students how to punch then this teacher is no longer teaching "boxing" or "Judo" but "combat".

The moment that a

- Bagua teacher tells his students that "Don't cross your legs because your opponent may sweep you (common sense)." That Bagua teacher is no longer teach "Bagua" but "combat".
- SC teacher tells his students that "Don't expose your grion because your opponent may kick you (common sense)." That SC teacher is no longer teach "SC" but "combat".

IMO, there is only "combat class" and there is no "Bagua combat class" or "SC combat class".

[eastpaw]

I don't know anything about taiji and have never studied, but I imagine a good tai chi sparring session would look like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dc6rKNGQFPo

In my opinion he has some good sticking skills, he quickly evades and stick to the person's body, and then his opponent's boxing skills are worth nothing.

Niiice find, Alexander!

[Chris McKinley]

Something I haven't seen addressed at all yet is the motivation(s) of the trainee. If the student does not understand that what they are learning is eventually meant to be preparation for a real life-threatening assault then the skills they gain will not be contextualized that way. Even if you start very slowly, make the whole thing fun like a game, smile and laugh a lot, and have a friendly beer together after class....you may eventually be able to get them sparring at faster speeds and with more intent, but the first time they face a real assault in da str33tz, they're going to stand there and piss themselves in front of their girlfriend.

Safe and friendly is wise, especially at first. But both before you ever begin and as time progresses, it is vital to address people's motivations and understandings of what those motivations require on a continual basis. Otherwise, even if you bring them out of their shell and get them sparring regularly and with gusto, they're in danger of developing a false sense of security.

[Walk the Torque]

Not that there is a one size fits all, but I'm pretty sure drills learning to defend (& defend only) against a variety of attacks, at increasing levels intensity and from static to moving, is a good way to ease into sparring.

This approach can be coupled with building the internal skill of "keeping the chi sunk to the dantien". If practice is paced in such a way as to give said noob the mental space (which is of course, relative to experience) To maintain the presence of mind to cultivate "sinking the chi" /relaxing/remaining comfortable, then they will progress through to full on sparring with the 'skill' of being comfortable (because that is what it is) every step along the way.

The key is well structured graduality. At least that's how I learnt Tai ji.

Conn

[mrtoes]

I haven't done much boxing but sounds like a great workout and getting tai-chi peeps doing some boxing drills has got to be a good thing. I like the method where you move from drills to limited move sparring and putting it all together, I've done it a bit like that before and I like the training. Also limiting the drills also keeps people from going all at it, if you just put people together and say "NOW FIGHT!" then someone who is bigger or more experience can get a bit carried away and suddenly you've got bruised egos and even more fear of being struck.

I'm all for this sort of training to be taught alongside the "other stuff" (eh whatever that is for the school in question) but I feel for me in the long run it's best for it all to be taught together. Like, ok you've learnt white crane spreads it's wings or whatever, here's a drill for it and here's how you can use it in sparring, for example. That's not at all to detract from the value of what you're doing though. Did you manage to link the drills to aspects of their tai-chi form, btw?

Cheers,

Matthew.

[meeks]

Bagua teacher tells his students that "Don't cross your legs because your opponent may sweep you (common sense)." That Bagua teacher is no longer teach "Bagua" but "combat".
- SC teacher tells his students that "Don't expose your grion because your opponent may kick you (common sense)." That SC teacher is no longer teach "SC" but "combat".
IMO, there is only "combat class" and there is no "Bagua combat class" or "SC combat class".

I disagree. if you are a hung gar kuen guy and your school makes you do western boxing drills you are no longer learning hung gar kuen. you're learning hung gar forms and boxing. Your style shouldn't have to conform to your opponent's style - make him fight your style. If you're a wrestler, do you box with the boxer or do you make him wrestle you?
Depending on your school it's either combat or it's forms. "Bagua combat class" is basically "combat using bagua". you either learn to take care of business with your style or you're doing empty forms (and some people only look for that sort of enjoyment).

I also feel it's not the style of gong fu that makes you have the awareness to protect your groin (close your legs) or whatever other tidbits that keep you alive - it's your training. Well - except for high kicks in tae kwon do, but that's because it was designed for a sports arena against other TKD guys so sport styles don't count.

When I hear of a taiji/xing-yi/bagua school making their students do boxing drills for fighting it makes me think someone's filling in the gaps.

[eastpaw]

you either learn to take care of business with your style or you're doing empty forms (and some people only look for that sort of enjoyment).

/snip/
When I hear of a taiji/xing-yi/bagua school making their students do boxing drills for fighting it makes me think someone's filling in the gaps.

So true. Hence wushu people have sanda.

I hate wushu.

[neijia_boxer]

great feedback people even the disagreeable stuff. however we are talking about noobs here and it took this long to get them to even accept sparring drills in a internal arts class.

sparring and noobs-
1. build confidence in them- re-enforce it with confidence building drills like parrying, catching (things in tai chi form)
2. after teaching solo forms and applications, bring those into a sparring setting

i am having to baby spoon feed these cats so even doing sparring isnt a weekly event, its something that is thrown in 'here and there' until they are comfortable enough. My goal is to assist with getting them used to someone aggressive enough to be throwing punches and kicks at them and how to respond appropriately and calmly under pressure.

In tai chi I dare not teach the empty hand form without showing the applications. this way in practicing the form they can use the application intent or 'yi'. i've introduce them to some hsingyi and drills like- heng vs pao drill or pi vs beng drill. I introduce them to circle walking and fan chang change. Then walking drills where one guy does a fan chang change and the other guys needs to react and change on circle. There is always push hands too which is very reactive.

i am putting my friends at an advantage with boxing drills, as a matter i fact i show them how a MT guy might attack or a bjj might attack or a judo throw might be countered with a throw. its called "know your enemy strengths and weaknesses"

[meeks]

In tai chi I dare not teach the empty hand form without showing the applications.

that's REFRESHING! Good to hear someone not just about the forms. I always say if you know applications, forms become useful (no longer empty).

i am putting my friends at an advantage with boxing drills, as a matter i fact i show them how a MT guy might attack or a bjj might attack or a judo throw might be countered with a throw. its called "know your enemy strengths and weaknesses"

so have they started taiji fighting drills yet? A lot of times if they train the shit out of their taiji (or bagua or xing yi) then they don't need to be shown 'against another style' because they just respond to the new attack accordingly.
What type of 2 man taiji drills do they do? (can't say push hands...)

[Mut]

Sorry Meeks I disagree with this:

A lot of times if they train the shit out of their taiji (or bagua or xing yi) then they don't need to be shown 'against another style' because they just respond to the new attack accordingly.

I find that if the context changes the action will change. I have seen on many occassions that an attack comes from a similar angle to another attack that has been well trained but because it looks different to what the pratitioner is used to the response does not come out. IMO the best way to become well versed in using an art is to practice against as many different possibilities as possible to increase the famililarity of different body shapes and methods. Essentially we all need to test against other 'styles' in order to better understand our own methods. To say you don't need that testing is pretty norrow I think.

earlier you say this:

if you are a hung gar kuen guy and your school makes you do western boxing drills you are no longer learning hung gar kuen. you're learning hung gar forms and boxing.?

Maybe. But if the hung gar guy is shown how to box but only uses the boxing as a training method to feed people who are learning to apply thier Hung Gar then it is not hung gar form and boxing. it is learning to apply Hung gar against another skill set, which is what we all need to do if we want to aspire to being practical.

[neijia_boxer]

so have they started taiji fighting drills yet?What type of 2 man taiji drills do they do? (can't say push hands...)

meeks-

some of the taiji fighting drills and 2 man work I have shown are solo fajin drills using the 8 energies while moving forward, back and to left right, and being centered. good posture is key, this can be standing, and with jump steps when doing the offensive/defensive moves. Later transferring that power into a object like a heavy bag, eventually a moving target like on focus mitts, kick shield, and thai pads.

i like to have them do structured tai chi punches to the belly pad (step-parry-punch is a good example) and work palm strikes to focus mitts (brush knee/fair maiden palm) . we'll take strikes and kicks from the forms and doing them on thai pads and create simple yet comprehensive combinations using good posture and structure. simulated various attacks like throw a kick to person and have the person do brush knee to stop/catch kick and push the opponent.

[meeks]

ok - so are they doing any 2 man taiji fighting drills or is it just movement exercises? Any good san shou drills? I'm still not sold on teaching them to box when it doesn't sound like they're learning 'to taiji' yet.

[neijia_boxer]

meeks,

i not sure how can i make it simple enough for you to understand without me sounding like a broken record every post. it takes some kind of wisdom and intelligence to study IMA especially baguazhang and taijiquan.

first off i dont care to sell you what i do for my friends and students- they have fun, feel confident, and learn techniques.

yes we are doing 2 man taiji fighting drills. some are solo movement drills, later they work with a partner on them. paired drills might be using the 8 energies of taiji, 5 elements of xingyiquan, jibenshou fa of baguazhang. we incorporate them with power on martial arts equipment. we sometimes use sections from the 88 "taiji san shou " two man set as combat drills too. sometimes we do taiji with wrestling/shaui jiao flavor, sometimes we do taiji with qi-na flavor, sometimes we do taiji with combat sport flavor more of a striking with arms (boxing) or striking with arms and legs (kick boxing) and sometimes striking with arms, legs and throws (san shou). all of it is based on who comes to class, where they are in their training, what i want them to learn. Most of the combat stuff is pretty much after warm-ups, stance work, basics- (hand skills, footwork, other), forms, and conditioning. after combat work we do qigong/meditation/mind work.

i can care less to be a dogmatic traditionalist. to me the traditionalist are a joke and just gathering dust. my training is based on 15 years of CMA/IMA and 5 years of MMA training with Pros(boxing, muay thai, wrestling, judo, jujitsu, and cross fit) people with real combat experience. Most CMA/IMA people i know dont come near to having anything remotely close to real combat experience, it really is a rare type to find someone in IMA willing to fight and show it. those that do and have like john wang, wuziyidi, cerebus, ashe, cai longyu, cung le, kenneth fish, luo deixu, mike patterson (and his students) and a rare few others like myself with balls to step in a ring have my respect.

taiji is there for me, i dont have to be there for taiji.

your a taiji teacher...what two man fighting drills do you do? enlighten me on taiji combat.

[meeks]

I'm a bagua instructor. My students fight from day 1 and they fight every class using bagua. I have bagua specific fighting drills and 2 man drills that I was fortunate enough to find a teacher who lived bagua his whole life and would actually pass these along to me. I teach bagua the way I was taught - you must first be able to use it. I don't contrive exercises based on other styles despite having trained many styles over the years. I don't call it bagua and make them use learn western boxing - call it a quirk.

I will be teaching taiji (again) this fall but not for fighting. I've never once said "I teach taiji for combat". I was simply left scratching my head that a bunch of taiji guys were learning to box and kickbox to learn to fight instead of using their taiji. I'd be asking the same questions to John if he said his guys did SC but learned boxing/kickboxing for applications.

If someone wants to learn fighting they can take my bagua class - taiji has too many people wanting simple exercise so I keep it that way for them. That way I don't get a bunch of unathletic "Bill Gates in the 80s looking out of place sparring" student photos... (someone posted those a few months back in the chen man ching thread - funny as hell). Otherwise you get these bookworms that have never done a sport in their life exalting their martial arts skills verbally over green tea because they do taiji - I'm saving the world from students like that.

neijia_boxer - I don't mean to sound like an asshole (it just comes naturally- ba dum bum!). I like what you do and what you have to say, I was just hoping to hear some cool taiji drills for fighting apart from western boxing stuff and things got a bit derailed.