What I love about combat sports

[Juan]

If you want to be a fighter, you gotta fight. This is what I am learning.

So, yesterday on the recommendation of one of my MT classmates I went to go meet with a boxing coach (our former coach officially left). Before meeting with my new coach I sent him some of my fight videos so he can see what I need to work on (things I think I need are head movement and hand speed). So we got to talking after a really good workout and he asked me how many fights I've had. I told him, and he asked about amateur bouts. I told him that I had not had any amateur bouts as I did not like the system in MT of throwing people to the wolves. He asked about boxing and explained the A,B, C system. I told him that i had considered an amateur boxing bout in the future in the back of my mind. So he saind that in a few months we can start looking at getting my amateur license and getting a couple of fights. I am totally down with that. And next year I can also fight at the "Masters" level and not have to worry about the youngsters. If this works out it will be really cool.

On a side note, yesterday we were working on generating power. What he was teaching me was almost exactly what my Taiji teacher was teaching me from the WCC Chen system.

[neijia_boxer]

thats really cool Juan about a trainer who wants to take the time to get you ready and get your boxing license. The license (if you havent seen one) looks like a passport where you show the League associates your picture, has your weight, height, wins and loses, latest doctors physical ect. in it.

I know what you mean with the William CC Chen stuff and boxing being very similar in power generation, I seem to get a back lashing around here on RSF for implementing basic Boxing and MT drills for Tai chi noobs ready for sparring. It seems that Tai chi combat has to look like Tai Chi.

[Juan]

thats really cool Juan about a trainer who wants to take the time to get you ready and get your boxing license. The license (if you havent seen one) looks like a passport where you show the League associates your picture, has your weight, height, wins and loses, latest doctors physical ect. in it.

I know what you mean with the William CC Chen stuff and boxing being very similar in power generation, I seem to get a back lashing around here on RSF for implementing basic Boxing and MT drills for Tai chi noobs ready for sparring. It seems that Tai chi combat has to look like Tai Chi.

Dude, if you're teaching your students to fight and it helps them in the future I wouldn't worry about what anyone else has to say. Keep doing what you are doing.

[Chris McKinley]

neijia boxer,

I'm with you in that a real fight will never look like a series of large-frame Yang-style applications, for instance. That's no matter how supposedly skilled the Taijiquan exponent. However, if it's true that Taijiquan applied doesn't have to look exactly like the form, why would it be that in sport combat, all applications must look like boxing then? See, I believe that particular sword can cut both ways. IOW, is it possible to apply some of the same ring skills and generalship to combative movements that don't necessarily look exactly like a boxer's jab, cross, hook, uppercut and slips/bob & weave?

Perhaps...perhaps not. It would be interesting to find out though. I hope to be able to look at some of that eventually, and I believe you are already in a position to explore some of it. Maybe that's part of what you mean when you mention "adding sticking/pushing/tui shou and bagua rou shou into the mix"?

[Dmitri]

It seems that Tai chi combat has to look like Tai Chi.

Why should that not be the case/make sense?

On a semi-related note... Do Western boxing coaches often (or even ever?) use training methods other than the standard/traditional Western boxing methods?
(Honest question as I really have no idea, -- although it would seem to me that it either never happens or is extremely rare... no?)

[Juan]

It seems that Tai chi combat has to look like Tai Chi.

Why should that not be the case/make sense?

On a semi-related note... Do Western boxing coaches often (or even ever?) use training methods other than the standard/traditional Western boxing methods?
(Honest question as I really have no idea, -- although it would seem to me that it either never happens or is extremely rare... no?)

Well, Coach Stan (my new coach) worked with Benny Urquiedes so he tweeked his stance a bit from what he learned from The Jet. The change is very small however, and I would not have noticed if he had not pointed it out to me.

[Dmitri]

Thanks Juan.
So if we were to presume that to be true for a reasonably large number of boxing gyms, then why use western boxing training progression in one's taiji training?

Only two possible reasons IMHO:
1) taiji training curriculum is missing something in that area, or
2) taiji training curriculum is incorrect, misunderstood, or not taught properly for whatever reason.

Personally, the only two things I found missing from a good "traditional" (whatever that means ) taijiquan curriculum are ground work and weapons training.
But all other things (related to striking and stand-up grappling) should be very well taken care of IMHO, without having to resort to any other disciplines.
Others' MMV of course.

[Juan]

Dmitri,

Were you asking me?

To me my boxing has nothing to do with my Taiji training. I'm not doing boxing to enhance my Taiji, but doing boxing because I became interested in it. Having said that, there are lots, and lots of things that overlap in all the arts I am studying (MT, Taiji, Boxing, even Capoeira). What's cool is that I can encorporate things I learned from each one into each one. For example, when sparring in MT I will try to use some of my Taiji. When sparring in Taiji I try to use some of my MT, etc.

My training has nothing to do with the progression of one art but rather following my interests.

Juan

[Dmitri]

Nah, that was more directed at neijia_boxer... But thanks for addressing it anyway.

And I agree that a LOT of things overlap in a lot of arts, naturally.

[neijia_boxer]

First off, I'd rather have people focus on Juan's thread and not on me n my views. I am in the same boat as Juan.

I did all the taiji learning with forms (short and long), qigong, push hands, Weapons: sword, saber, spear, two person 88 set, taiji san shou, supplementary trainings with several teachers and masters. Hitting a plateau....... out of my own interest as well- I moved on to MMA- I first started BJJ and boxing, but after seeing muay thai I really felt that it would be supplemental to san shou/san da I had already done becuase of the apparent overlap.

so taiji training curriculum isnt missing something - just most taiji people are in denial of its striking and kick capabilities

Because Yang taiji was somewhat missing something with each particualr teacher- i went to many different taiji teachers over the years. the ones that teach a more fighting approach tend to be better IMHO, but each one added there part to make it more whole.

[Dmitri]

Thanks for your explanation, and didn't mean to derail (was just responding to your earlier sentiment re. "back lashing"...

[Andy_S]

One thing boxing has in the western world (and elsewhere) is good local, regional and national amateur associatoins where, as Juan is finding, it is not that difficult to get matches - ie compete/fight.

Moreover, in boxing matches, boxers use 100% of their trained skills.

Taijiquan is a very different beast.

(1) AFAIK, even in China, there is not a well-organized PH competition scene either locally or nationally, when compared to other amateur sports - even though PH is the de facto combative format for Taiji over the last 50 or so years;
(2) At best, PH competition only uses a limited portion of the overall Taiji skillset; and
(3) At worst (I do not agree, but many make this point) PH was never meant to be a competition anyway, and so is invalid.

So IMHO, what Taiji is missing is a widely combative forum in which people who WISH to fight for Taiji can do so, and so test their combative (as opposed to aesthetic) attributes.

The lack of a combative forum means that Taiji has progressively lost its martial roots, to the point where although Taijiquan is anecdotally the world's most widely practiced MA, I can't think of a single Taiji practitioner (ie one who practices Taiji/only Taiji) who competes in open fora such as sanda or MMA, except for a handful of Dan Docherty's boys.

I would add that in both of these formats, pretty much the full range of Taiji technqiue/jin/what-have-you is applicable.