how to train to be unpredictable?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

how to train to be unpredictable?

Postby everything on Fri Oct 02, 2009 10:02 pm

I am wondering how you train to be unpredictable? I am specifically thinking of a sparring and combat sport context.

Is it simply that you train different combinations?

I can't help but think most people (such as myself) are fairly limited in their thinking and/or in their breadth of proficiency so tend to throw their favorites and not mix it up enough. If I'm weaker on certain attacks, maybe getting breadth is a prerequisite to unpredictability?

I was thinking Anderson Silva is the most unpredictable mma fighter out there. It's really impossible to predict, even as an armchair analyst, what he might do, whereas every other name fighter is easy to pin down. Even Fedor, who is so adaptable to any opponent, has certain clear attributes, such as lots of wins by armbar. Using these two guys, I'd say there are roughly two forms of unpredictability:

1) I'd say Fedor is unpredictable in that he uses the follow the opponent method.
2) Silva is unpredictable in that you have absolutely no idea what his attack will be. He basically owns everyone, except for the brilliant heel hook by Ryo Chonan that started off with a flying scissors, itself ridiculously unpredictable.

If I were only following taijiquan sayings, I'd say just do what Fedor does, and that is enough. However, that seems to be based on defense and not offense. Silva seems to be on another level with this attribute... What do you think, and how do you train to build up this ability? Or what do you recommend? Is it throwing in some "low percentage" moves?

Is this also a mental "think outside the box" ability and how do you cultivate it, or how do you think one should?
Last edited by everything on Fri Oct 02, 2009 10:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: how to train to be unpredictable?

Postby Mut on Fri Oct 02, 2009 10:14 pm

to be unpredictable take a skill set and personalise it... i guess that is the art part to the martial
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Re: how to train to be unpredictable?

Postby everything on Fri Oct 02, 2009 10:33 pm

Mut wrote:to be unpredictable take a skill set and personalise it... i guess that is the art part to the martial


I think I and everyone else can't help but personalise the skills but that doesn't seem enough to develop unpredictability.

In a sparring context, one trick is do A three times so your opponent starts to expect A when your move starts off the same way, but then do B. Another is fake high, go low, but after a while, your same sparring partners will know these, so you have to come up with others... I guess it really is try to make the combos as random as possible.
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Re: how to train to be unpredictable?

Postby Chris McKinley on Fri Oct 02, 2009 10:36 pm

Keep in mind also that predictability is relatively more important in a tournament setting than in a real self-defense one. IOW, the longer the fight lasts, the more issues of predictability become even more important than usual, since patterns of responses that are identifiable over time may not be so obvious in a brief momentary encounter. Therefore, one of the solutions to avoid becoming predictable and having that pattern identified and exploited is to end the encounter as quickly as possible. That's of course also the most effective strategy for minimizing your chances of being injured or killed.
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Re: how to train to be unpredictable?

Postby gosao on Fri Oct 02, 2009 10:43 pm

yes if the fight goes on too long you run the risk of being figured out...

example here heheheh
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Re: how to train to be unpredictable?

Postby everything on Fri Oct 02, 2009 10:45 pm

yes I'm just thinking of a sports context. In some random self-defense context, no one knows my preferred patterns but then I have no idea of all the other variables such as number of people, weapons, etc.

I guess my related question for both contexts is - how to keep getting better at not telegraphing? That seems part of improving unpredictability in the sports context and still important for the self-defense context. I was told to try to not look where I'm attacking but just focus toward people's dantian to sternum area, but other than that I don't know what else to work on here yet...
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Re: how to train to be unpredictable?

Postby everything on Fri Oct 02, 2009 10:51 pm

great Donnie Yen clip, hehe. I love how in movies they always dust themselves off. I'm gonna have to remember to do that.
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Re: how to train to be unpredictable?

Postby Walk the Torque on Fri Oct 02, 2009 11:53 pm

everything,

A couple of things I could offer is that with all of your usable techniques, have at least two ways to move on from one technique to another. Another is to learn how to lead and read your opponent's mind. You will be far more surprising to someone if they are not focused on what you are about to do.

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Re: how to train to be unpredictable?

Postby Mut on Sat Oct 03, 2009 4:17 am

I think I and everyone else can't help but personalise the skills but that doesn't seem enough to develop unpredictability.
I don't actually agree that everyone...let alone many people personalise their skillsets. Silva is unpredictable because he has no idea what his attack will be. When the attack just happens all by itself that is personalising the skill and that is what makes it unpredictable.

Conn has some real insight with this:
Another is to learn how to lead and read your opponent's mind. You will be far more surprising to someone if they are not focused on what you are about to do.
If you have the timing to go when your opponents thought has not quite become action you will seem unpredictable.
Last edited by Mut on Sat Oct 03, 2009 4:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: how to train to be unpredictable?

Postby Darth Rock&Roll on Sat Oct 03, 2009 5:15 am

drop a lot of acid and shit your own pants.

you are now fully trained in the unpredictable!
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Re: how to train to be unpredictable?

Postby Josealb on Sat Oct 03, 2009 7:32 am

In my opinion, intent plays a big part in this. The more in tune the intention is with the body, the faster you can shape it up to apply what you think...to the point of almost being formless. Like Silva.
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Re: how to train to be unpredictable?

Postby D_Glenn on Sat Oct 03, 2009 7:44 am

everything wrote:
Mut wrote:to be unpredictable take a skill set and personalise it... i guess that is the art part to the martial


I think I and everyone else can't help but personalise the skills but that doesn't seem enough to develop unpredictability.

In a sparring context, one trick is do A three times so your opponent starts to expect A when your move starts off the same way, but then do B. Another is fake high, go low, but after a while, your same sparring partners will know these, so you have to come up with others... I guess it really is try to make the combos as random as possible.


Bagua has about 9 basic strategies.

"do A three times so your opponent starts to expect A when your move starts off the same way, but then do B." That's the basic strategy of the 'san chuan' or 3 penetrating strikes.

"fake high, go low" comes from dui trigram 'bao shi zhang' /embracing palm or also called 'dun' crouching.

"Another is to learn how to lead and read your opponent's mind." I don't know about the mind-reading but seeing their intention (yi) and following, going along with their movement is the kan trigram 'shun shi zhang'/ moving with movement palm.

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Re: how to train to be unpredictable?

Postby Chris McKinley on Sat Oct 03, 2009 7:48 am

Darth for the win! Boys, it jest don't git no better'n 'iss.
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Re: how to train to be unpredictable?

Postby everything on Sat Oct 03, 2009 8:54 am

haha thanks a lot
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Re: how to train to be unpredictable?

Postby Void on Sat Oct 03, 2009 12:03 pm

How about this...

'With a still mind the mirror inside you reflects your opponents mind'

I have vivid memories of seeing my teacher's cross travelling toward my temple out of my blind spot in apparent slow motion - but it was still too late to move, then bang it'd all go black for a moment. I'd regain consciousness and find myself still on my feet but moving towards the turtle position - then I'd notice a wide uppercut travelling in slow motion - but again my weight and mind was in the wrong place. bang. black again. Regain consciousness again and my first thought being - "I am NOT going under again!" Then getting vision back, being in even more of a turtle - looking up and seeing one of those strange over the top punches Mike Tyson did sometimes... and yep, mind and body in the wrong place again .... its in slow motion but nothing I can do to stop it. bang.

He didn't move fast - he often used simple obvious movements. But he could apply them with a timing that seemed inexorable.

Last edited by Void on Sat Oct 03, 2009 12:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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