Jian and Dao Training - Beyond the Form

[Andy_S]

Gents:

Something Yusuf said on the Jian thread spiked my interest: He has invsted a lot of lettuce in a decent jian, and trains a lot with it, including test cutting.

My personal weapons training is largely forms: I dont have much interst in app as I am unlikely to be attacked by a D'Artagnan or Musashi, and I simply enjoy the aesthetic pleasure of the forms. However, I have always been drawn to swords, so regret, a bit, that I have never done any weapons sparring in CMA (though have done a bit in Pinoy MA). Nor have I ever done test cutting. The only "functional" CMA weapons training I do is with with a heavy pipe (for strength) and with poles (for power)

So, some questions for the form.

What does your weapons training consist of, beyond solo forms?
Do you know the applications of the weapon forms?
More broadly, do trad CMA cold weapons have any SD fuction? Can everyday objects be substituted? (The weapons I am referring to here are dao, jian, guandao, spear, etc - not knives, canes or short sticks, which are carriable/obtainable, so have clear functions even today)
Do you do test cutting? If so, on what? Where did you get this training? (eg is is Chinese - or did you copy the Jap practice?)
More broadly: What is the overall point of cold weapons training in this era of assault rifles and cluster bombs?

[Nick C]

What does your weapons training consist of, beyond solo forms?

Two person sets and drills, strength and foundation drills, and a little fun 'dueling' with my kids and toy swords

Do you know the applications of the weapon forms?

Yes, in detail for all but the very last sword form I have done, which we havent gotten around to yet

More broadly, do trad CMA cold weapons have any SD fuction? Can everyday objects be substituted? (The weapons I am referring to here are dao, jian, guandao, spear, etc - not knives, canes or short sticks, which are carriable/obtainable, so have clear functions even today)

In general, unless you are carrying something with a similar form (ie short stick for sword, pole for spear / staff etc) their direct function is probably somewhat limited. However I for one have learnt a lot about Tai Chi applications from studying the spear - its movements and sensitivities.

Do you do test cutting? If so, on what? Where did you get this training? (eg is is Chinese - or did you copy the Jap practice?)

No - I dont have a 'real and sharp' weapon for which to train cutting, only blunt training weapons.

More broadly: What is the overall point of cold weapons training in this era of assault rifles and cluster bombs?

in a military sense? none - although knives are excluded from that. Most cold weapons are too big and cumbersome for military use. If you are interested in more than fighting or direct SD type use, then they can definitely help you form a better understanding of the overall art you are studying however.

[Andy_S]

Nick:

Fair answers, thank.

[Michael Dasargo]

forms came after function. Nowadays, we seem to learn backwards. I joined the World Jianshu League to get a real feel for live jian play. They have carbon polymer swords so you can go full speed and thrust with minimal risk of injury.

2 cents,
Mike D.

[Pandrews1982]

What does your weapons training consist of, beyond solo forms?

In Xing yi we do 5 elements movements, 12 animals movements, advanced practice all have weapon applications. Two man applications, continuous two man set sequences i.e. repeating a set of set attack/defense movements, free applicaiton. Mainly with jian. I have heavy spears I made myself - 9ft long solid english oak (locally sourced) they are too dangerous to do apps with, too heavy even if used padding/armour. Mainly do solo practice with the heavy spears and substitute them with long poles or something a little shorter for two man apps but you do lose some of the character when you do this. I also train with short staff, and needles (Ci), needles are similar to knife work and may be substituted with knife but they also have some extra abilities too (i also made my wooden training needles). One of my training buddies has custom made zhanmadao (horse chopping sword - similar to the big bagua dao) from Raven studios - it is very big and pretty heavy and he does solo practice and some two man sequences and apps with my teacher. We also have pole arms (halberds, staffs, pikes, etc.) but i haven't trained them, same with hammers and archery we do them but i haven't had the time or inclination to do them yet.

Do you know the applications of the weapon forms?

Well with 5 elements, and 12 animals and then onto experimentation and researching new strategies i have to admit I don't know all the applications with any of the weapons i use. With jian I am comfortable with 5 elements and about seven of the 12 animals but can't profess to any great standard. With spear I can do the 5 elements, bear-eagle (badly) and snake (not bad). With needles i only practice 5 elements and a little tiny bit of snake. With short staff I do five elements and some animals. most of the movements from barehand xing yi translate directly to any weapon you use so you can in a way "work it out" yourself once you begin to understand how the weapons are used, but I find even when i work out what the application is my teacher can add a ton of extra subtlety and also show me another 10 applications which I'd have never thought of.

More broadly, do trad CMA cold weapons have any SD fuction?

In today's society i would say little function due to legal restrictions, practicality (you can't take a spear with you on the bus) and that what i consider to be real self defence (rather than being able to fight off the local drunk) would mean you start at a considerable disadvantage i.e. you've already been hit hard so deployment of a traditional weapon would be quite difficult. The only possible exception being a knife, but i'm not going to go into the whole drawing a knife for self defence debate.

Can everyday objects be substituted? (The weapons I am referring to here are dao, jian, guandao, spear, etc - not knives, canes or short sticks, which are carriable/obtainable, so have clear functions even today)

In some cases yes. Jian methods and short staff/cane methods cross over well, with the added benefit that with a short staff or cane you can switch ends which can be useful in some circumstances. A solid cane/staff can easily break a skull or knee or something so they are applicable. A good solid umberella can be used similar to a jian and can be used to thrust/stab too. The indestructable titanium umbrella has been point out to me before but i've never seen the need for one, its worth looking up the online video of it though just to see the smartly dressed guy with the nice umbrella go apeshit on a punch bag with it.

For training purposes I have found nothing really subsitutes for the heavy spears I made myself, I couldn't find anywhere which could produce them within my budget and all the spears i see online and catalogs are lightweight, bendy, rubbish. Some of my training partners use wooden handrails/bannister rails which they bought from DIY shop, these tend to have one edge flat which can give you blisters as the edge rubs against the hand when you run the spear through it, they are also not heavy enough but do subsitute for the right size. Wooden jians and other weapons are quite widely available. For archery to begin with a cheap fibreglass recurve bow will cost less then £50/$50, there are good fibreglass/wood reproductions available from eastern europe for around £250-£500. I got my wooden recurve from ebay, its a sports hunting bow but hand made and cost me $40 US plus shipping from the states and is nice though I've not got aroudn to doing any proper xing yi archery with it yet.

Do you do test cutting? If so, on what? Where did you get this training? (eg is is Chinese - or did you copy the Jap practice?)

No test cutting. My teacher has sharp swords and has in the past done live blade training with his japanese teacher years ago but he doesn't do that kind of thig these days and i don't see the need to do it really. I can see the benefit though, shows if you ahve correct form and use of energy/force etc etc. so I won't knock it. It is something I would consider doing purely out of interest rather than for any practical purpose.

More broadly: What is the overall point of cold weapons training in this era of assault rifles and cluster bombs?

to develop specific body methods and skills. Spear helps develop strength, structure and power (if you use a heavy spear it is sometimes impossible to do a method if you are not using correct allignment etc), these can be translated to barehand work directly. Also I have found i have improved a lot in barehand from training with a spear, my teacher says that to some extent the spear teaches you what is right and wrong (as the last comment in brackets).

With jian in a two man situation with free movement i.e. a duel type situation. I have found that in application you will tend to use very simple movement, fancy crap gets you tagged, unless there is a large discrepency in the skill level of the two people. Xing Yi jian dueling seems to become lots of small pi movements with a few hengs and paos, occassionally you might see the opportunity to do something a bit clever but you always have to be restrained in case things don't work out and you can change what you are attempting. So in doing this you end up developing a good sense of spatial awareness (distance), timing (not to get cut and when to cut), and use of speed. These things can be transfered to barehand but with the obvious fact that the distance becomes a little closer than sword range.

The other thing with weapons is that they are an extension of the body, to use the cutting tip of a sword or spear means it has to have adequate movement/energy and to do this you have to learn how to transfer your movement/energy along the weapon. Without talking about internal power and qi and stuff at all the practitioner starts to develop the basics in the use of these things without any instruction on internal mechanics, qi, jin, chi gong blah blah blah etc.

Sometimes I train with a restricted environment e.g. you can only go in one line as if you were blocked in by other people on either side as per a battlefield type situation. This 90% of the time ends up with both people getting hit, usually one takes a major hit and the other less major. But this makes you use more subtle movements and really shows the value of the xing yi dragon posture which allows you to evade without stepping off your line of attack.

Overall I think that weapons can give you help to develop specific skills which benefit your other training even if the actual weapon methods are now obsolete. Plus it is fun to swing big sticks and play sword fighting with your mates like you were kids again.

[taiwandeutscher]

Ma training with both, sabre and sword, consists of 3 parts:

1 Yang style forms and their coreographed partner sets, mostly practiced with steel blunts.

2 Applications, we try to find out in training without the teacher around (2 more interested guys, the most part of the group doesn't care for such training). We ask back the teacher, read in some left sources, also look up online (Scott Rodell is quite educating), get a few hints here and there, and we use redwood swords and sabres on one side, a Japanese shinai on the other (best combination, one soft, one hard, otherwise you need new stuff ever 2 weeks). Don't forget gloves, a head protection (throat) and be prepared for lots of bruises on amrs, legs and blue trunk points from stabbing.

And personally, I do test cutting once in a while, on fresh and old bamboo around my house (plenty here in Taiwan). With a good blade, I found out, it's all about angles. But as said on another thread, sharp weapons need 100% concentration, best not done after a busy work day, and such carbon steel blades tend to take at least 1 hrs of cleaning up: Take off the juices of your cutting material, polish to warmth, oiling and putting back in the scabbard, best done with calmness, some green tea and lots of time.

[yusuf]

Hey up

Although i do practice with the Jian my skill level is very very low, I still find myself using it as a two handed weapon (years of swinging a katana sort of ingrains itself).

On the questions

What does your weapons training consist of, beyond solo forms?
No forms for me. Single motions done repeatedly. Then the same with stepping. Two man drills (sort of loops of motion) but alas we don't get together often enough to really get this skill.

Do you know the applications of the weapon forms?
Err, Don't know any forms yet. Still trying to ingrain the basics.

More broadly, do trad CMA cold weapons have any SD fuction? Can everyday objects be substituted?
I find the single movements translate very well to pointy objects like pens, umbrellas etc.


Do you do test cutting? If so, on what? Where did you get this training? (eg is is Chinese - or did you copy the Jap practice?)
Yes. Simple chopping up tubes, mats, wood etc. Don;t know if hackign stuff up can be attributed to a nationality, If it can then mine is Indo Persian Arab Jewish influenced Sino Japanese


More broadly: What is the overall point of cold weapons training in this era of assault rifles and cluster bombs?
Shen Fa, as you well know since i have heard you say that before

cheers

yusuf

[RobP2]

What does your weapons training consist of, beyond solo forms?

Have done forms in the past (jian and dao) but not these days. Work freestyle movements with a sabre

Do you know the applications of the weapon forms?

Yes, though it was largely through own research. Was never shown a lot in the way of applications by my previous teachers. Also found some correlations between weapon use and empty hand (even more so in current training)

More broadly, do trad CMA cold weapons have any SD fuction? Can everyday objects be substituted?

I think so. Sticks, umbrella, machete, etc

Do you do test cutting? If so, on what? Where did you get this training? (eg is is Chinese - or did you copy the Jap practice?)

Yes, wasn't something I was taught just started trying it out. Use plastic drink bottles filled with water and hung up

More broadly: What is the overall point of cold weapons training in this era of assault rifles and cluster bombs?

a)I don't have access to either of the above
b) fun and historical interest (know some English backsworders too)
c) practicality as a close range weapon
d) as a tool for exploring movement, both mine and others
e) readiness for the zombie apocalypse

[yusuf]

e) readiness for the zombie apocalypse

forgot that one.. most important of all..

[Andy_S]

Thanks for comments - seems like some of you are having fun out there in medieval Chinese zombie apocalypse musketeer land.

MikeD:
How active is the world Jianshu League? Have they worked out a fencing- or arnis-type routine of basic stabbing/parrying/cutting practices that allow the neophyte to start sparring? (I ask, as I assume, perhaps wrongly, that most CMA peeps learn weapons forms rather than basic techs.) And do they work jian against other weapons? (Dao, spear, pole, chainsaw, etc)

PAndrews:
Sounds like a very thorough system you train. Out of interest who do you train with/under? Do you have any visual/digital material available? 2-man HsingI weapons work is new to me.

All others:
Those of you who do test cutting: Bamboo, water bottles, etc, are all very well, but has anyone tried it on carcasses, or even their Sunday roast? (This may be a stupid question, but is a serious one, as a body, with flesh, muscles, tendons, bones and - assuming it has not been gutted - all kinds of interesting organs inside it - must be a very different thing to a bamboo, water bottle or stack of straw matting.)

And how did the ancient Chinese train weapons back in the good old days? The Japanese used bokken, and later shinai...was there a tradition of wooden weapon fighting in the Middle Kingdom? How about practice cutting? What did they use?

[Pandrews1982]

Andy - about to send you a PM

BTW I have read somewhere, (but would have to search for a source I think it was in a book I have somewhere) that in zhanmadao training the Chinese would put two wooden stakes in the ground one in front of the other, the first cut would take out the front stake at low level and then swing round and cut the upper stake at a higher level. This would simulate taking the horse's front legs off and then immediately cutting the rider as he fell, or taking out the horse's head if it was in the way. Personally I am not a fan of Zhanmadao unlike the other traditional xing yi weapons where the body drives the weapon in zhanmadao it is like the weight of the weapon drives the method and the body is just directing things. Its a specialist weapon really with some very strange applications, many used like a spear rather than a sword and of course as the main target is the horse there is even less applicability these days too.

[yusuf]

..hey Pandrews...

there is an interesting point in your last message.. I have found that body driving the weapon seems to make some people very very slow ..i find sometimes it is just best to stick the weapon in the way of an incoming and let the body move naturally to respond... don't know if Rob still posts here but he di some Olympic fencing and could enlighten us on the methods used to avoid being skewered by a foil...

cheers

yusuf

[Ian]

I've never cut anything with a real sword.

However, handling tools that are specifically designed to kill people shifts your psychology in some way. It really depends on the individual, but I have a feeling it can be useful for building the right mindset for martial arts.

For example, you really begin to understand 'form follows function'. If you need to see your target through the sights, and the sights aren't in your eyeline but an inch too low, then no matter what your gun kata* sifu tells you, he's wrong.

The margin for error also shrinks way down, which I think adds precision and awareness to your training. Holding a controlled explosion in front of your face requires you to be focused and not messing around.

*imaginary 22nd century style - taichi gun for health and the preservation of ancient western culture

[taiwandeutscher]

All others:
Those of you who do test cutting: Bamboo, water bottles, etc, are all very well, but has anyone tried it on carcasses, or even their Sunday roast? (This may be a stupid question, but is a serious one, as a body, with flesh, muscles, tendons, bones and - assuming it has not been gutted - all kinds of interesting organs inside it - must be a very different thing to a bamboo, water bottle or stack of straw matting.)

And how did the ancient Chinese train weapons back in the good old days?

Well, a vey good point, should get myself half a pig and cop it up for taitai. Seriously, yes, should use something more fleshy.
Training in old times? No real idea, but already Zhuangzi stated that swordsmen cut each other to pieces, just training under one paying king.

[Wanderingdragon]

Don't know which thread this is most relevant to but, how much should a Jian weigh?