The metaphor of fascia

[leopard]

Good lookin' out, Tom. Great thread. Thanks.

[canard]

good grief, I didn't think it was possible for a MA forum to have more handbag throwing that RSF......

[yusuf]

..and I thought Chris McKinley was over verbose

[somatai]

Re: The metaphor of fascia?
Quote:
Kevin Leavitt wrote:
It just don't work that way with kinesthetic practices, no matter how hard we want to think, rationalize, or intellectualize it.
I agree, but I don't think the importance of careful observation, rationalization, and thinking skills can be understated either.
A lot of guys that "get it" (including people from both the CMA and JMA camps) have mentioned that you can't be an "idiot" if you want to obtain these skills. Perseverance and hard work sans the thinking will only land someone in a sea of mediocrity.

"Couple of things from a book that's been quoted way to often and used as a tool to beat an animal:

1) Most people don't think enough (and intellectualizing is NOT the same as "thinking" in this case)
2) Most people don't train enough
3) Most people don't know how to combine 1 & 2

Get parts 1-3 down, and things kind of start to happen all on their own."



I quoted this post from Robert John on the other thread because it rocks.....this is so true, it is this trinity that makes this pursuit(internal body methods and development) so worthwhile...... it is such a mystery and challenge and if you are not in awe of your training and constantly fishing for new connections and awakenings you are not engaged enough........... Having felt, Dan, Ark and Rob as well as Ima people who have this feel, it is clear what the idea behind the term "gung fu" is.

[Chris McKinley]

yusuf,

I am merely a verbosity wanna-be in comparison. My excuse is that I'm an extremely fast typist. Either those guys are ungodly fast with the keyboard or they are particularly dedicated to each and every post. Upon whipping out the verbage, their wind is even longer than mine.

[Bhassler]

Tom,

Could you point to something in particular that you thought was interesting? To me the whole thing boiled down to another "Internal is different than external because it uses fascia and intent plus many other things that can only be vaguely alluded to online and have to be felt, and if you don't get it your shit is fake" thread. I don't doubt that there may be good stuff in there (and by good I mean practical that someone could actually benefit from reading), but since I have not met any of the IS exponents involved and am not familiar with their particular jargon, I suspect I may be missing something.

[Chris McKinley]

What I'm most reminded of by that thread is that "investing in loss" and investing in minutiae are not the same thing.

[everything]

What I'm most reminded of by that thread is that "investing in loss" and investing in minutiae are not the same thing.

lol this is a line that will have to be reused again and again

[ashe]

this is a very timely topic tom and thank you so much for posting! i'm loving the talk on bio-tensegrity.

i recently spent some time with a training brother of mine who is also a profoundly powerful body worker and actually spent time apprenticing under tom meyers (author of the seminal "anatomy trains"). my Sifu has been expounding on the role fascia for awhile and that combined with my experience with my training brother recently has completely opened my eyes to a whole new level of possibility.

[Bhassler]

Cool, thanks for the elaboration. I definitely get that it has to be felt, but I kind of wonder at the purpose of going online just to say "I have this really great thing but I can't tell you about it online." I know Sigman has in the past posted a number of exercises to begin to develop this quality (which I've never bothered to work since it's all old-hat in my neck of the woods and, besides, I can never get past his obnoxious online persona), but for the most part it's just a bunch of talk that may or may not include general theory (it's fascia and it's not muscle) but nothing that anyone could play around with and maybe learn something for themselves.

I also understand wanting to feel a lot of different guys to get a sense of their expression of power-- so far I've felt a lot of different gradations of internal power, but I have yet to feel anything that's so different that I would call it a whole different animal, which leads me to think that either I've been fortunate to meet mostly guys who are of real quality in what they do (which is impressive regardless of internal, external, or whatever), or maybe-- just maybe-- there's something else out there that could only be simultaneously awesome, terrible, and sublime, if only I could find one of these legendary practitioners who seem to get it so clearly.

Ultimately, whether you think of fascia, chi, pulleys, bones, or magical chee fairies that move your arms and legs, it's all just metaphor to contextualize the felt sense of what's happening in your own body, since the brain doesn't have a muscle/fascia switch that can be toggled back and forth-- it's all just part of the bigger "you". So, while it can enrich one's experience, I don't know if I believe that the mechanical accuracy of one's self-image is particularly significant.

[somatai]

" I don't know if I believe that the mechanical accuracy of one's self-image is particularly significant."

i agree that it is not, the model is irrelevant, but new models are useful in that they may make someone curious and begin to look and see in new ways, but at the end of the day, what is actually happening is not so important in my book, it is that "it" is happening that matters.

[Upyu]

Anyone interested in this thread should definitely check out the book "Turning Silk:" http://taiji.org/
While I could do without the hippy narrative of birds and bees getting it on, it's chock full of pointers concerning the physical connections being discussed in this thread, and for people that have their foot in the door conditioning-wise, she provides enough guidance to possibly get people to realize some things that might take longer otherwise.

[Wuming]

Thanks Upyu, I probably should get a copy of that book.
The Aikiweb thread is hilarious, not the least because the uber troll Phillip "Buck" Burgess seems to be able to go on and on without being banned. Of course, if anyone outright called him a troll they would get banned.

[Interloper]

Thanks Upyu, I probably should get a copy of that book.
The Aikiweb thread is hilarious, not the least because the uber troll Phillip "Buck" Burgess seems to be able to go on and on without being banned. Of course, if anyone outright called him a troll they would get banned.

LOL
You're absolutely right, Wuming. I've seen guys defending themselves AGAINST trolls get banned on that site time and again, while the trolls are allowed to blather on with impunity. There was another Uber Troll, "Justin Smith" (probably not his real name) who got away with that for years before he got bored and faded away to wherever it is bored trolls go.

[Interloper]

At this time Z [the teacher] is 90. Still very strong and very quick.

L has been very helpful in translations and also asking direct questions, which Z encourages.

He explains a little, but most of his teaching is what i call the direct method. Which is to allow the person to feel it, or watch while he interacts with another student.

I must stress that even with this way, there really is no real way to grasp his art, at his level there is nothing simple in its simplicity. He really does not have a step by step method other then to keep practicing, thinking about it, and trying to understand it by direct application. This is more or less the traditional gung fu way of training.

Even the local Chinese have a hard time believing what they see Z do . . . at these times he calls me over to show what he can do. They ask me in Chinese what do I feel and is it true... I can tell them that yes it's true but really have no way to explain what I feel. Even in english it would be hard.

I have since given up trying to understand it myself even though I can feel my body reacting to it, and have some small ability myself. . . the important part I feel is that even with a small piece of it, one can then go on to understand the how, and what is happening. This is no guarantee that one will be able to get it.

Z said that not even one [in a thousand] can get it, but without practice there is no chance at all.

The essence of his practice, as I understand it, is based around the neigong ability cultivated through correct practice, coupled with correct understanding. This really changes the way, how, and why many things are done. Without this, much of it will not be as effective and on the same level as any other Chinese martial art.

So very true, IMO. The JIMA based stuff I came up in was similarly non-articulate when it came to describing just how to "do." You had to feel and then try to recreate those "feelings" within yourself to create IP. I don't know whether that was because the art's founder was himself inarticulate about it and taught by feel, or whether explanations got lost or mistransmitted somehow. I tend to believe the former, though, especially after reading Sagawa's comments in "Transparent Power."

The sublime aspects of IP we all strive for can't be step-by-stepped to any deep degree, beyond the basics needed to get the process of development started. After that, you're on your own. So much of it is about intent and the ability to hold intent without wavering, while you're in motion and doing "other things" --at the same time that you are holding all the lines, alignments, mass-shifts, windings and paths in your body. There's no way that can be externally instructed by a teacher talking you through it.

Getting to the level of refinement and sophistication that makes phenomenal people what they are... you have to do just what that 90-year-old veteran said. It has to come first feeling the teacher, and learning the basic body drills to start developing the internal lines and use of intent... with lots of solo practice of those excercises -- THOUGHTFUL practice -- first and foremost to forge a "aiki body."

Hoping to get there myself, but I have to say that it is often excruciating.