Liu He: Nei San He

[kreese]

I believe that one thing that sets IMA apart from their brethren are the emphasis on the internal harmonies as well as the external harmonies. Although there are bound to be many different interpretations of what the 3 internal harmonies are, I'd like to survey people's understand of how they are defined in their respective arts and how they are understood through one's personal practice.

For me, I have a pretty simplistic viewpoint on what the 3 internal harmonies are. Mind, emotion, will, and strength all unify into one motivating force that arrive all at once in the execution of a particular movement or technique. The study of stillness and emptiness help one to identify and control these separate elements so that they can be consciously rejoined through slow and deliberate practice. The ultimate goal is to unify these elements again so that they are always harmonized at the mere intent to act. There is no internal conflict or division.

I find that the practice of xingyiquan really strips things down to the essentials so that these elements can be recognized, trained, and unified. The essential nature of the 5 elements allows one to explore both the internal and external harmonies in the most basic movements that generate power. One can thus focus on slowly coordinating the body and mind through the repeated practice of the concise elemental forms. San Ti serves as the checkpoint that one can always come back to integrate new knowledge and body-sense.

[mixjourneyman]

You put your left yi in and your right qi out, you throw in a little shen and you shake it all about.

Thats essentially my practice of the three internal harmonies....

But to be serious: I focus on sending my yi to the place I am striking, sending my qi to the place inside my body that I am striking with (IE: through arm and out fist) and harmonizing my movements so that they become "internal".
A big part of the three internal harmonies in my practice is combining movement of the associated organ with the element. IE: when I do zuan I focus on my lower back around where my kidneys are, or for pi I focus on using my rib cage to create power.

[nianfong]

you might want to start by defining the 3 internal harmonies.

3 internal harmonies: 內三合
心與意合、意與氣合、氣與力合
xin (heart/mind) and yi (intent) harmonize
intent and qi harmonize
qi and li (external force) harmonize

[Dai Zhi Qiang]

You put your left yi in and your right qi out, you throw in a little shen and you shake it all about.

Thats essentially my practice of the three internal harmonies....

But to be serious: I focus on sending my yi to the place I am striking, sending my qi to the place inside my body that I am striking with (IE: through arm and out fist) and harmonizing my movements so that they become "internal".
A big part of the three internal harmonies in my practice is combining movement of the associated organ with the element. IE: when I do zuan I focus on my lower back around where my kidneys are, or for pi I focus on using my rib cage to create power.

I would have to disagree with you on this interrelationship between the organs and the Wu Xing Quan as far as I know this is a recent addition as Dai XIn Yi Quan (as I know) does not have this.

Fighting is fighting, when you are delivering power you are focusing on causing the most damage in the fastest, efficient way.

All this talk of qi, jing luo, zang fu, dan tian is going to get your ass kicked

Jon.

[Pandrews1982]

I don't really like to compare internal and external too much, there are internal and external elements in many martial arts some emhasise one way the others another. I think the difference with internal is the emphasis on consciously developing thngs like the six harmonies, in more external arts there is less intulectualising about these things but it doesn't mean they are absent.

Anyway you may also want to define what you believe Xin, Yi, Qi and Li to be, as there is a universe of difference in points of view on all these terms.

The way I see it (in super abridged/condensed/zipped format and from a hebei xing yi POV)

Xin: Spirit/Essence individual to you. This is your individual driving force.
Yi: Intention, but more than that; it is focus, awareness, and will all in one. Yi is a unification in itself, a composite made from your conscious and subconscious mind.
Qi: Debatable, I believe at a simplistic level that this involves the efficient release of energy through respiration in combination with the use of relaxed muscluature and tendons.
Li: I believe this is the external movement derived directly from use of muscle power/strength.

I think that stillness/emptiness is a beginning in the study of these, beyond which is much more, the subjects fo Xin and Yi are infinite and just looking at each separately without going on to Qi and Li could be a life's work. We have an exercise where we "research" intent, its like chi gung but...different. It encorporates both movement and stillness and looks at Qi and Yi primarily. Xin and Yi are more about how you go about the task, Qi and Li are about how the task is applied and the external harmonies are more about performing the task. So Xin and Yi are spiritual/imaginative/psychological they are your gameplan, your strategy, your abililty to react and respond. Qi and Li are about creating and issuing power. The external harmonies are about moving and delivering the power. All have to work together (harmonize) for it to be effective.

There are many levels of this, its like a graphic equalizer or something, you have to play with the levels until you get the perfect tone. The aim is to be 100% efficient in all the individual aspects and to have 100% harmoniation but in reality you'll get nowhere near this most of the time. Maybe you have 50% xin, 50% yi and these are 50% harmonised, not a bad result but this may be exponentially better than someone who has only 10% Xin, 10% Yi and 10% harmony between them. See how complicated things get all of a sudden without even looking at the rest of the harmonies.

Anyway, I try to train through experience. I try to focus on all the 6 harmonies but usually my best progress comes unexpectedly or through osmosis. My elements are pretty good these days (so i have been told) but a year ago they were poor (IMO), I haven't focused particularly on any one method or way of training but ahve become more aware of when something feels right and wrong and when something works and doesn't. I've trimmed the crap from my elements through experience rather than theorising. I've also cross trained with some good external guys, I think this has helped me develop more Yi and tune into my Xin. I'm now starting to work on my 12 animals in depth, which is a whole new ball game and really ups the ante; It's like you've taken off the training wheels and now if you fall you're going to hit the ground.

The five elements are just generic movements, there could be 43 elements for all it matters, its arbitrary. They are a way of beginning the process, learning the alphabet so to speak. You see different schools use slightly different variations of the elements to get the same goal, we could use 5 different methods all together and still get to the same place. Any movement or in fact no movement can be used to explore the 6 harmonies. The five elements provides a basis from which more complexs structures can be built, a knowledge of the 6 harmonies is a bonus which usually develops alongside this.

Its easy to theorise and think things are going well but until you test it you don't know. The one thing I say for external is that they are usualy happy to test things out rather than do solo work and cooperative practice. The guys I train with don't go whole hog but they aren't afraid to hurt you (within reason) so you have to have some venom in your Xin and focus your Yi just to keep up and stop them from taking advantage. It is surprizing how someone with realitivey low skill and internal knowledge can be a good fighter with just raw Xin and intense Yi, they will do anything to beat you even if they take a beating or if it takes them all day to beat you up with lame strikes.

My two cents is to do the theorising, the solo stuff, standing exercises push hands whatever and when you are up to testing it get someone who isn't cooperative, who doesn't give a shit about your art, who would happily kick you in the nuts given half and chance just to get one up on you, and then see if your 6 harmonies work. If you get to the point where no-one can literally get near you and you can just play with them then fair enough but until then don't rely only on the fact your "internal" art is more sophisticated because your sophisticated ass is likely to get handed to you.

[kreese]

you might want to start by defining the 3 internal harmonies.

3 internal harmonies: 內三合
心與意合、意與氣合、氣與力合
xin (heart/mind) and yi (intent) harmonize
intent and qi harmonize
qi and li (external force) harmonize

Yes. Thank you, Fong.

Although I have a rum-soaked copy of the Xingyi Classics 1.0 , I left them in the states because reading was something I did way too much of when first starting IMA. I agree that the 3 internal harmonies are probably trained by all MA in some way. But I believe that xingyiquan training is somewhat special in that it targets these elements specifically. I also believe that xingyiquan movement highlights proper external harmony through the apparent simplicity of the movements. What I've seen of xin yi and its variants confirms this. I trained Chen shi taijiquan for a bit and I found way too much room for interpretation. I will say that having witnessed some Chen village style taijiquan recently, the old frame presents a much clearer idea of how to train and express the external 3 harmonies through the Chen frame, at least at the beginning stages.

What is Yi to me? Yi is the commander, the leader. It creates the plan and creates the top-down directive that the rest of one's self must follow. If the Yi is not clear, the troops are confused. It is the clinical, cerebral part of the mind. It is the initial spark that sets off the powder keg. Yi is cold.

Xin. Heart. Emotion. The motivational force. Picard's #1. The left brain to Yi's right brain. Somewhat volatile, it must be kept under control because it can override the sophisticated nature of Yi's work in coordinating shen fa. It is a tremendous source of power. Xin is hot.

Qi. The jury is still out...

Li. Force. Power. The net result. The last thing your opponent feels before getting knocked the f@#$ out.

[Franklin]

You put your left yi in and your right qi out, you throw in a little shen and you shake it all about.

Thats essentially my practice of the three internal harmonies....

But to be serious: I focus on sending my yi to the place I am striking, sending my qi to the place inside my body that I am striking with (IE: through arm and out fist) and harmonizing my movements so that they become "internal".
A big part of the three internal harmonies in my practice is combining movement of the associated organ with the element. IE: when I do zuan I focus on my lower back around where my kidneys are, or for pi I focus on using my rib cage to create power.

I would have to disagree with you on this interrelationship between the organs and the Wu Xing Quan as far as I know this is a recent addition as Dai XIn Yi Quan (as I know) does not have this.

Fighting is fighting, when you are delivering power you are focusing on causing the most damage in the fastest, efficient way.

All this talk of qi, jing luo, zang fu, dan tian is going to get your ass kicked

Jon.

well for hebei style i would have to disagree with you

but seriously i would disagree
i met a teacher of Kenny Gong's Shing Yi (thats how they spell it) and he was showing me some of the training- they have some interesting nei gongs to gain access, movement, and control over different parts of the body (i learned only a very very little bit from him but he did demo a couple things)
one of the things that he demoed to me was how the power was directly related to the movement of the area around the organ that corresponds with the element
so after being shown some examples of that- i went home and had my girlfriend at the time place her hands over different part of the body while I did different elements (i had already been doing xing yi for a number of years) and I also had movement in the area corresponding to the organ for the element- but the movement was much less pronounced than what that one teacher demoed- so my conclusion was that correct practice over time will produce similar results but you might need to be shown certain things to concentrate on to notice it- (also realized that specifically training a certain connection will greatly enhance that connection- where if you do not specifically train it it will develop with correct practice but if specifically trained it might be more controlled and a bigger connection)

maybe the organ theory was not originally part of it but added based on observations from correct practice over a period of time- either way it is there and does not really have much to do with sending the qi and mystical lights or another mumbo jumbo

i don't think the corresponding areas for the organ/element relationship have much to do with the nei san he though
i think that is just a physical manifestation of correct practice

i personally think the door to the nei san he is first getting and refining the wai san he
and then developing the saahh jin in every movement
it is probably the best way for the intent to lead the body and to harmonize with it
and then the heart and the yi will harmonize
the heart being the thinking mind-
and these will harmonize with the body (the qi and the li)


Franklin

[kreese]

Very cool, Franklin. Like I said, I'm an ignorant bumpkin so my ideas of the 3 nei san he only come from rudimentary xingyiquan training.

I agree with you that the wai san he are the door. As much as we'd like to pass the pipe and talk about internal things all day, we still need to get our bodies to manifest jin. And that's the beauty of xingyiquan. You do both jimmy jam and relatively full-speed movements from day 1.

So heart (xin) is the thinking mind? Can you elaborate a bit?

[Andy_S]

Franklin:

So your chick put her hand on your organ and it moved - but your organ did not move as much as the teacher's organ when he asked you to put your hand on it?

Thanks, but this is a martial arts board, pal; keep this kind of stuff for www.bi-swingers.com.

[Franklin]

kreese-
thanks but my understanding is still limited too- i can not claim to have everything figured out
but i can share my understanding so far

So heart (xin) is the thinking mind? Can you elaborate a bit?

well my take on it is somewhat different from what other people posted about xin-
for me it is not emotion-
in chinese thought (cultivation practice) emotion is not something to use- it is something to observe and release our attachment too
in chinese medicine- different emotions are attributed to different organs
each organ has positive emotions and negative emotions
too much of either one can lead to functional impairment of the organ

the general element / organ / emotion correlation (not going too far into it- just the basic emotion for the element/organ)
wood / liver / anger
fire / heart / joy
earth / spleen / anxiety or over thinking
metal / lung / sorrow or grief
water / kidney / fear

on top of the emotion correlation with each organ their is also a spirit correlation (different from emotion)
the organ is said to "house" the spirit
wood - Hun, Ethereal Soul
fire - Shen, spirit/mind
earth - Yi, Intellect
metal- Po, Corporeal Soul
water - Zhi, Will-Power


the heart is the house of the mind
but the heart is also very interesting
it is the stage where all the other organ's emotions get to play out on and also manifests so to speak aspects of the other spirits- as the other organ's spirits are aspects of the mind/shen
Shen- spirit- has different aspects - it is our consciousness, insight, wisdom (ability to apply knowing and and perceiving and apply this knowledge critically and wisely)*

it is interesting that the heart pumps the blood throughout the body-
the spirit (Shen) can reach every part of the body (the link between the mental and physical)
the blood is the material substance which sustains our structure

so the Xin- heart is the house of the Shen - Spirit/Consciousness
and we look at the nei san he we see that it really is not that mysterious

3 internal harmonies: 內三合
心與意合、意與氣合、氣與力合
xin (heart/mind) and yi (intent) harmonize
intent and qi harmonize
qi and li (external force) harmonize

lets look at the aspects of the nei san he and define them
we already went through xin
yi- intent- kind of simple- the motive force that powers something- begins in the intangible (different from the spirit of the sleen which is also spelled yi but is intellect-and governs thinking and some types of memory)
qi- translated as energy but can be boiled down to the function of the body- i.e. what makes the body function
li- the result of the function- force

so after we work on our wai san he (external three harmonies) and we have developed a good structure and timing- all of the structure is working together we can then shift the focus onto our intent
like i said the best way to work on the intent is to try to practice with a very strong sahh jin (killing force) in each movement- it is like every movement has the intent of killing-
this harmonizes the intent and the body and the stages of this are the nei san he
first if you have a strong sahh jin in each movement
the mind and intent will harmonize
there will be no room for the mind to think about anything- therefore it will be harmonized with the intent
no stray thoughts in the middle of the movement
i think this is why the internal martial arts can be used for cultivation / spiritual practice as well (but remember that this stage is after the wai san he have been firmly established...

when the xin and intent are harmonized
the qi and intent will harmonize-
this means the intent and xin which are already harmonized will harmonize with the function of the body

when this happens the function of the body will harmonize with the force (qi with li)
means that the mind, intent, and function are harmonized and produce the force
the force will depend on what the intent is
but it should be unimpeded- as everything is harmonized


Franklin


*copied and paraphrased from a TCM study guide because it says it best

[qiphlow]

good stuff, franklin.

[mixjourneyman]

DaiZhi: It may not be in xinyi, but its in xingyi for sure. Its not about mystical qi experiences, its about using the part of the body that the element is attached to.
So for pao, I turn my chest. Its as simple as that.

[kreese]

some ramblings about intent and wei san he over mueslix:

I was taught to practice Chen taiji with a very strong intent. Slow form practice is one way to accentuate this aspect of training. I see a lot of forms out there, but most of them are performed quite fast. Perhaps this is for demonstration purposes. What I don't see very often is intent. No, I can't read minds through video, but it does appear the intent is something that you can see exhibited through form. It is that something extra that gives the empty shell a solid core. At faster speeds, it seems like the body leads and the (conscious) mind follows. Slowing down the physical aspect--while excruciating for the mind at first--really develops a strong intent. You just want to explode after a while. That's why I find much truth in the saying that extreme hardness and quickness arise from extreme softness and slowness.

However, the inherently circular and spiral nature of the movements in Chen taiji can make it hard to concentrate on the wei san he IME. I find xingyiquan training to be a much simpler way to unify the movement of the disparate limbs and torso quadrants until movement becomes deceptively simple. Perhaps this is just a stage, and movement will again become complex as new aspects are added. Having learned a xin jia variant of Chen style to begin with, I now appreciate the relative simplicity of lao jia (only seen it, haven't trained it...yet). The external harmonies were much clearer to me, and the structure was solid as a rock.