Postural analysis and natural movement

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Postural analysis and natural movement

Postby I-mon on Mon Nov 16, 2009 3:31 pm

I'm just going to throw this out there, probably won't be typed out too well but I'll give it a go:

Examining a person's standing posture can show us which bones are out of alignment. The alignment of bones is dependent upon the state of balance of the muscles pulling on them, therefore postural analysis can tell us which muscles are short and which are long.

For optimal alignment and functional freedom of movement with minimal energy expenditure the body needs to be balanced by muscles on opposite sides of every joint pulling in opposite directions. This is known as the "agonist-antagonist" relationship.

For example, the pectoral muscles pull the shoulders inwards and forwards, the rhomboids and trapezius muscles pull them back. The strength and tone of these muscles needs to be balanced. If the ones on the front are too much stronger than the ones on the back then the shoulders will be habitually pulled forward and will settle into that position for all movements, losing range of motion and strength in the opposite direction. This position will become (or appear to be) "natural" for that person, and any time they need to work with their arms or back they will instantly revert back to their habitual posture in preparation for and during the moment of work.

Most normal people have parts of the body which are habitually overused and other parts (usually the antagonist muscles of the overused parts) which are habitually underused and often more or less "switched off" and forgotten.

So, if we have someone whose arches are fallen (due to weakness in the foot muscles, tibialis anterior and posterior, peroneal muscles) hips are externally rotated (weakness in the inner thigh muscles, tightness in the external rotators) pelvis is tilted forwards (weak iliopsoas, tight back extensors, weak glutes, weak transversus) sunken chest and internally rotated shoulders, forward head (weak and shortened neck muscles) then unless they systematically loosen those muscles which are pulling them out of alignment and strengthen those muscles which will pull them back into alignment so that they stand straight and balanced when they are relaxed, as soon as they have to move or apply force or work with any part of the body all of those postural habits will instantly come back and the body will try to do the work using only the habitually overused muscles and not using the parts which are switched off.

So when it comes to "natural movement", my current proposal is that if we train to restore the natural balance between all of the agonist-antagonist muscle groups throughout the body from the ground to the top of the head so that we can stand perfectly aligned with gravity when we are relaxed then all of the muscles which were previously habitually contracted or switched off will be available and able to contract and relax appropriately in all movements.

Wu Ji standing as the basis for all of the internal martial arts makes perfect sense in this context, and the training of "opposite forces" in yiquan, xingyi, and bagua conforms perfectly to the concept of agonist-antagonist muscle groups.

Sorry if there's too much waffle in there. Again, none of this is new, all of this is common knowledge among educated bodyworkers, but some of it might be new to MA practitioners.

now for some pictures:

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Re: Postural analysis and natural movement

Postby Bao on Mon Nov 16, 2009 3:55 pm

"So when it comes to "natural movement", my current proposal is that if we train to restore the natural balance between all of the agonist-antagonist muscle groups throughout the body from the ground to the top of the head so that we can stand perfectly aligned with gravity when we are relaxed then all of the muscles which were previously habitually contracted or switched off will be available and able to contract and relax appropriately in all movements."


Excellent post! 8-)

Good modern explanation of old knowledge and old thought.
In chinese tradition, taoism, TCM or whatevah, our current state is not "natural". When we are born, we are natural. But the more we live and learn, we become more and more "un-natural". Our practice (Taoist qigong, IMA) is much about that we must re-learn, or regain the body's "Xian Tian" ("pre-natal") state, to become "natural" again so we can stay healthy and live long.
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Re: Postural analysis and natural movement

Postby JAB on Mon Nov 16, 2009 4:43 pm

It has been my experience that those who REALLY know how to use the martial principles presented in CMA, refer to proper body alignment and proper posture as the defining characteristics in the definition of "internal." Nothing less, nothing more. Those who cannot fight worth a damn start dragging metaphysical mystical magical bullshit into the mix in order to veil their own inefficiencies and inabilities to handle combative pressure, thus diverting the attention away from practicality that can be proven, and guiding the focus to the metaphysical that cannot be proven and is very subjective. Not to mention it usually has NOTHING to do with "martial" arts.

Good post bro.
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Re: Postural analysis and natural movement

Postby shawnsegler on Mon Nov 16, 2009 4:44 pm

I would liken the quality to one of bouyance. Your body is compressed from it's initial natural state by the continued force of gravity and postural anomalies that arise from different life experiences.

Once you relax past all the compression and unnecessary stiffness then you achieve what feels to me like "bouyance" or i've heard called "open and closed" in my lineage. Once the natural state is reachieved you can modulate between the extremes of being open and closed within your body, and not be bound into specific tight movement parameters.

Best,

S
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Re: Postural analysis and natural movement

Postby middleway on Mon Nov 16, 2009 4:49 pm

cool! Really interesting post! thanks!

also i would say that all those photos are of static standing people and not people in motion so Natural 'movement' isnt relevant to them really. (obvious i know lol).

In motion the optimum alignment with gravity is to use it to aid the motion. We need align to the direction of our force ... ie .. lean to some degree to maintain the lack of tension on the front or back. If we remain as per those diagrams when we move forward for instance, the muscles on the front of the body will have to contract to counter how the movement of the base forward acts on the rest of the body.

Inclining doesnt mean bending or deforming that optimum body state though, just means making that optimum body use gravity in the best way possible. In a static posture the optimum alignment with gravity is to be aligned as showed ... to move in a way that is least taxing on the muscles we need to tilt and let gravity be used in the optimum way to create motion without creating excess tension. Obviously i aint on about learning and falling over ... but initiating movement by using gravity is an interesting thing. :D

We see animals 'Naturally' aligning for optimum directional performance all the time.
Static
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Motion
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Note the spine lining up with the direction

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Then when wanting to make fast directional movement we do the same thing
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What are your thoughts on this idea of inclining to use gravity in motion or initiation of motion?

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Re: Postural analysis and natural movement

Postby somatai on Mon Nov 16, 2009 5:04 pm

nice post....i am with you, postural work is a key to good performance.
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Re: Postural analysis and natural movement

Postby David Boxen on Mon Nov 16, 2009 5:21 pm

Great points. One of my bagua instructors likes to tell the story that he was at a not so great school doing taiji and bagua in the past. He decided to take his learning more into his own hands; he realized that all the "internals" shared one exercise (wuji) and made that his primary home study. Shortly thereafter he was throwing people around in pushhands and left the school.
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Re: Postural analysis and natural movement

Postby I-mon on Mon Nov 16, 2009 5:33 pm

Thanks guys.

Chris those photos of the horse and chicken are awesome.
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Re: Postural analysis and natural movement

Postby Upyu on Mon Nov 16, 2009 6:17 pm

JAB wrote:It has been my experience that those who REALLY know how to use the martial principles presented in CMA, refer to proper body alignment and proper posture as the defining characteristics in the definition of "internal." Nothing less, nothing more.

I'd have to solidly disagree with that statement. Body alignment and proper posture are more a subset of the "defining characteristics" and has been said as much by multiple guys I'm acquainted with that really know how to use these skills martially.

That being said
JAB wrote: Those who cannot fight worth a damn start dragging metaphysical mystical magical bullshit into the mix in order to veil their own inefficiencies and inabilities to handle combative pressure,

you have no quibble from me on the above statement. ;D
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Re: Postural analysis and natural movement

Postby BruceP on Mon Nov 16, 2009 9:03 pm

I think what a person brings to their posture, and movement, should be considered.

Genetics, nutrition, and levels and types of physical activity in a person's formative years are major factors that can't just be undone with simple corrections. Sometimes corrections can make things worse. There are occupational factors to be considered as well. I think it's important to find out how a person got to where they are before being so audacious as to analyse their posture and natural movement. Most times in training others, I've found that the perceptual and mental/emotional aspects of their being greatly influence their posture and movement.

I know an old guy who has lived in the mountains of northern BC his entire life. His posture and gait is a lot different from another old guy I know who lived on the tundra for 60 of his 72 years. They're both hearty old guys, each with a different type of carriage, either of which I would hope for myself if I live as long as they have.

I have a lateral curve in my spine from doing hard physical labor for the past 30 years. Never had a back problem. I'm right handed so I favor that orientation when I lift and carry, pound nails, work power tools etc. If I tried to do those things with a left-handed orientation I'd be a danger to myself and others just trying to relearn the skills and reorient my mechanics. I use 'imbalance' as my true balance, as a natural course of adaptation. I've been applying the physical principles of IMA to my life and work for 20 years now and as long as I continue to work in my current profession, I'm going to have 'lop-sided' issues. What my body has learned from IMA serves me quite well beyond a martial context.

Finding the martial truth of one's learning is all fine and well, but I'm finding that the martial training is a good means to far greater ends just being able to fight.
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Re: Postural analysis and natural movement

Postby BruceP on Mon Nov 16, 2009 10:00 pm

RUUUN, TOM!
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Re: Postural analysis and natural movement

Postby I-mon on Mon Nov 16, 2009 10:26 pm

Most times in training others, I've found that the perceptual and mental/emotional aspects of their being greatly influence their posture and movement.


It really remains up to the individual to engage themselves in self-aware practice.


Postural analysis is just another tool to help us discover our habits and weak points.
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Re: Postural analysis and natural movement

Postby edededed on Mon Nov 16, 2009 10:40 pm

Well, Tom... gained a bit of weight, there, eh? ;) (And stop scaring the locals...)
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Re: Postural analysis and natural movement

Postby NoSword on Mon Nov 16, 2009 10:48 pm

Allow me to reiterate some of the points I made back in the "Sound and Breathing" thread.

I am not about to say that posture is not important. It is critically important, not only from an MA perspective but in all walks of life. I am a bit of a posture nut myself and am constantly scrutinizing my own posture and that of others. And I agree that our modern lifestyles have introduced a host of unwelcome eccentricities into our postures. Everybody's contributions have been very good, especially those cool pictures.

However, posture is only a piece of the puzzle.

Back in my Zen days, I heard over and over again that Zen meditation is built on a tripod of breathing, posture and concentration. That was all well and good -- zazen remains, IMHO, one of the most effective ways to train these three aspects of the body/mind -- but when I was exposed to IMA, I realized that they'd failed to mention a key ingredient: movement. People don't just sit still, they move. So does everything else in nature. Although the Zen people did acknowledge this fact (a person who sits magnificently but can't do shit else is referred to as a 'stone Buddha'), at the end of the day I didn't find very many methods of training movement. So I moved on.

I've encountered people with picture-perfect posture who couldn't chew gum and walk at the same time. Conversely, some of the highest-level MA practitioners I've met had pretty crummy posture, but boy, could they move. In fact, some of those same people have told me that the postural work is only a means to an end, and that once the proper connections have been established you can discard it (to a certain extent).

Furthermore, I've met people whose bodies weren't particularly impressive on any level, but were amongst the most sensitive, compassionate and aware people I've ever seen. And most importantly, some people can move and have good posture, but they're horrible, insufferable assholes!

So, my eyebrows tend to raise a bit whenever people claim to have isolated THE key element of MA training, or of life/the universe/everything. It all kind of depends on what you're shooting for.

P.S.: I-Mon, you're of the opinion that fallen arches can be corrected through rehabilitative exercises? This contradicts what a lot of PT types have told me, namely that fallen arches are a structural and not a functional problem. If you've got some information, please hook it up.
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Re: Postural analysis and natural movement

Postby NoSword on Mon Nov 16, 2009 11:03 pm

Shooter wrote:I think what a person brings to their posture, and movement, should be considered.

Genetics, nutrition, and levels and types of physical activity in a person's formative years are major factors that can't just be undone with simple corrections. Sometimes corrections can make things worse. There are occupational factors to be considered as well. I think it's important to find out how a person got to where they are before being so audacious as to analyse their posture and natural movement.

...

Finding the martial truth of one's learning is all fine and well, but I'm finding that the martial training is a good means to far greater ends just being able to fight.


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