Kano, Judo and Tim Cartmell

[Fubo]

I think people tend to overplay their hands to make their point.
Kano recuited experienced jujutsu men to create the kodokan. Who then begin to do systematic randori to perfect their skills.

Kano studied various forms of traditional Jujutsu and took out the "deadly" techniques and retained the techniques that could be practiced against fully resisting partners, and formalized them with principals he believed to be superior... "HE" created the Kodokan! And "HE" formalized the systematic randori of Kodokan Judo!

The "deadly" techniques were retained in some of the Katas so they could still be practiced and remembered.

HE did not do it alone and from what I recall from reading in several sources never claimed he did. What HE did do was that HE formulated the idea and direction of where HE wanted it to go to reclaim the arts of jujutsu- which were dieing out in peacetime Japan and the waning of the warrior class- and to make them safer to practice and be preserved in the education system. He also invented the (Dan-I) rank by belt system. Both he and others developed the waza to fulfill his vision. You will be hard pressed to locate and get and agreement that all of the waza -this or that-were an invention of Kano's. thats absurd. Many of Judo's waza are not Kanos ot anyone elses. They are a combination of classical waza and talented men's revisions of them. Add to that the waza that were new waza created by talented students. Mifune’s invention of the triangle choke being one example.
I'm not detracting from his excellent vison and idea. Just simply acknowledging the men and the arts that he built from, and the giants who were around him.

Of course other students and people helped further develop Judo... that's the same for all MAs, but the way you worded your original post, you made it sound like Kano and a bunch of other guys got together and created "Judo" - THAT is not the case. Yes, he built his art off of other Jujutsu systems, but that does not mean he those other people in those Jujutsu systems help create the art of Judo - many MAs also come to be through a combo of different MAs, but the creation is not attributed to the other people in those older systems.

Yes, some of Judo's waza comes from many sources, but the creation of a MA like Judo is not just learning a bunch of techniques from different places, organize them and call it your art - Kano not only chose waza that could be practiced, but chose and developed the waza that were in line with the principles he wanted his art to be based on. Also, the creation of katas like Ju No Kata are not just a group of waza from different arts, but were developed by Kano to specifically focus on the principles of his art. He did a little more that learn some waza and invent a Dan system.

I NEVER said Kano created all the waza in Judo (the fact that you thought I was implying that is "ABSURD"... read my post again, you won't find me saying that anyway). It's obviously common knowledge that many people and people from other countries developed new waza... again, it's the same with most MAs.

You should go on the judoforum.com and post your original post, I bet you'd get a few replies.

[MAFAN]

I think people tend to overplay their hands to make their point.
Kano recuited experienced jujutsu men to create the kodokan. Who then begin to do systematic randori to perfect their skills.

Kano studied various forms of traditional Jujutsu and took out the "deadly" techniques and retained the techniques that could be practiced against fully resisting partners, and formalized them with principals he believed to be superior... "HE" created the Kodokan! And "HE" formalized the systematic randori of Kodokan Judo!

The "deadly" techniques were retained in some of the Katas so they could still be practiced and remembered.

HE did not do it alone and from what I recall from reading in several sources never claimed he did. What HE did do was that HE formulated the idea and direction of where HE wanted it to go to reclaim the arts of jujutsu- which were dieing out in peacetime Japan and the waning of the warrior class- and to make them safer to practice and be preserved in the education system. He also invented the (Dan-I) rank by belt system. Both he and others developed the waza to fulfill his vision. You will be hard pressed to locate and get and agreement that all of the waza -this or that-were an invention of Kano's. thats absurd. Many of Judo's waza are not Kanos ot anyone elses. They are a combination of classical waza and talented men's revisions of them. Add to that the waza that were new waza created by talented students. Mifune’s invention of the triangle choke being one example.
I'm not detracting from his excellent vison and idea. Just simply acknowledging the men and the arts that he built from, and the giants who were around him.

agree with above- that is to say I have been taught and have researched along the same lines. Not only did he not act alone (although it was his initiative) but there were seriously powerful and dare I say, 'dark' forces helping him and eventually attempting to hijack the Kodokan for radically patriotic and military purposes.
BTW (took out) is not clear enough of a claim for what Kano did to Kito, takenouchi etc to formulate Kodokan Judo (also-there were already other Jujutsu ryu calling their systems 'judo at the time of Kano's Kodokan formation (this was a product of the Meiji way of thinking) when he 'took them out' what are we saying he did with them? threw them in the bin? because it is not taught as part of the Judo syllabus (even the super secret part someone may have heard about on youtube or some other crap) doesn't mean it is not preserved within the Kodokan. these things did not disappear. I am suggesting to everyone here now that Kano actually did preserve these techniques not suitable for competition, and that the "Kano system of Self Defence" was actually taught to pre ww2 Japanese spies et al.
modifications and variations of this core system of Jujutsu-come-modern military close quarter system were also taught through interesting channels to Allied troops under t he guise of 'combat Judo' or street fighting etc.
anyway, this is a much bigger discussion than trying to prove a point based on observations of the potential or effectiveness of certain techniques- and it is also not worth arguing over.
the specific history of Japan and it's military at the time is as much for study in this case as any techniques of Judo/ Jujutsu etc if you want t o get to the heart of it.
once again - not worth arguiing about.

[Bodywork]

While I agree with your general view as well-I thought I'd add that many of the old jujutsu ryu still exist-such as Takenouchi ryu, Araki Ryu, Tenshin-shin yo ryu, Sosuishitso ryu, sho sho ryu and many others. And have not removed their techniques. Further, that whether or not they work or more importantly did work in their time is a subject many men do not ever seriously consider or even begin to understand. For starters most of the waza of these Koryu were designed to work with short weapons against men wearing armor. Certain throws, the lack of strikes and open pins were very rational for their goals. These guys were soldiers doing their jobs. Most assuredly there were also waza for unarmed work as well, but many of those had the always present weapons element All of that effects spacing and how one closes the distance. I think its been hilarious to often go on to various forums and read modern suburban white boys critiquing Japanese soldiers (the Bushi) designed field work and cutting it up as stupid and unworkable and that Judo had to come along and improve it. The reason its funny is-they don’t ever consider just who it is that is expressing a very startling level of presumption and ignorance.

All that aside, almost all of the waza you see in Judo had their founding in these Koryu jujutsu arts. The only thing I can agree on is that the modern (later 1800's) practitioners had not the experience of their predecessors as they were living in a time of peace. The arts were no longer needed and on the wane, so the idea of reinstituting some live training-was a VERY good idea. Well, live training is ALWAYS a good idea in any time frame The idea of removing more damaging (I hate the use of the terms deadly as they were not all "deadly") techniques, and bringing it into the physical education system was an excellent idea as well. But to be clear, assuming the waza you were looking at (while standing there in your white keikogi) was inane-is- preassuming it was designed for practicing, standing there in your white keikogi-which it was not!. Something which was brought home to a 5th dan Hawaiian Judoka in the 60’s who, while facing a man with a knife in a bar, did what Judo taught him to do. He grabbed his shirt to throw him, (which of course -was not a thick white keikogi)and simlpy just tore the shirt, right off him. So as he stood there with his enemies torn shirt in his hands-the Judo man was stabbed in the aorta and died. Had he been trained in the Koryu jujutsu arts, specializing in short weapons work, as well as in Judo, he might have considered other options, and be alive today.

All that goes to say, it is sometimes difficult to bring a balance to the discussion recognizing the greatness of Judo (Yes I am a fan) but also recognizing there is some really great, and I mean REALLY great teaching in the Koryu. Including internal training, irrefutably effective waza, and a deeper understanding of facing a knife, than you will see in a typical judo dojo.
Among judo fan boys, who really lack the understanding all you hear is Judo! Judo! Judo!, or UFC! UFC!
Many of the old guard even from as late as the 50's and 60's were still learning many of the older jujutsu waza, who look at the syllabus being reduced and the trimming down of potentials to only mastering a few waza for contests. Or worse ring fighting against other equally trained fighters, and they see all the talk of this new enlightenment about fighting....and they alone see the loss of so much knowledge, as the kids demean it as just old bullshit that didn't work.
and they just smile.
So, I guess I'm stating I remain a fan of both the old and the new. Why not practice both?

[MAFAN]

once again we agree in general.
I have nothing to contradict that with, but will add that the people we are talking about were NOT like us. (discomforting to consider we are not 'the goods')when compared to these people who were in some cases guinea pigs for their country to develop systems and strategies that would graduate from clan battles to international battles (as well as the very real propaganda of promoting the superiority of Japanese arts at that particular time in history) No, they were not 2-3 time a weekers, they were all day-ers every day- and the best of the best, period. they did not always do their experimenting in the dojo, but in death matches (no, not UFC- DEATH matches) in exhibitions for their Emperor, and in serious pre war spy college training.
sounds very dramatic doesn't it? well, killing is serious business- so they tell me.

BODYWORK- I think we are just agreeing with each other now, prob just as well- as I said earlier, not worth arguing about- If anyone were to look hard enough they would find the same thing.

[Bodywork]

Agreed, good talking to you.

[MAFAN]

You too mate.

[Fubo]

Bodywork,

I don't know if you're directing you're "Judo fan boy" comment at me, but I don't nut ride styles or people like some people in your description.

As for your little discussion about whether Kano is the true or only founder, maybe the discussion should be about how the label of founder should be attributed. If "founder" means one person completely inventing a MA by himself with no influence or experience of other MAs prior, who is a "true" founder of any MA?

[CaliG]

One last comment is that you can get fooled, and tooled yourself by ONLY doing randori. BJJ and JUdo are not fighting-they are sports What they are-are good training tools for resistive movement. Put them in a ring with fighters and they have not done as well. Its why Rickson left the BJJ behind went to Vale tudo. He knew fighting and strikes could take BJJ apart adn what was coming down the road.

Rickson Gracie left Jiu-jitsu?

That's funny because everytime he competes he uses jiu-jitsu and he's still teaching and doing jiu-jitsu you can even come out to California and roll with him.

http://www.gracieacademy.com/rickson_gracie.html

We must be talking about two different Ricksons.

[CaliG]

modifications and variations of this core system of Jujutsu-come-modern military close quarter system were also taught through interesting channels to Allied troops under t he guise of 'combat Judo' or street fighting etc.
anyway, this is a much bigger discussion than trying to prove a point based on observations of the potential or effectiveness of certain techniques- and it is also not worth arguing over.
the specific history of Japan and it's military at the time is as much for study in this case as any techniques of Judo/ Jujutsu etc if you want t o get to the heart of it.
once again - not worth arguiing about.

Yes, it's not worth arguing about. The fact is deadly moves from jujitsu are still out there all over the planet. A lot of military styles use Jujitsu techniques old and new so the idea that judo is somehow watered-down is a joke.

Judo came up with a way to specifically train and focus on throws so that there is less chance of injury, all forms of wrestling have rules, even SC.

Just read the details about this throw which is illegal in SC, but still legal in judo although it is done without trapping the opponent's foot probably to prevent injury.



Out of all the Asian martial arts in competition judo still reports the most injuries I don't know who in their right mind would want to change the rules so that there would be the possibility of even more.

As far as the judoka getting killed with a knife, the proper response should have ot get out of there or pick-up something bigger and heavier than the knife. As soon as you decided to take on stranger with a knife you're gambling and you're going to get cut.

[Fubo]

Great points, CaliG - It's a common misconception that the so called "non-deadly" techniques in Judo are some how less dangerous...

[DeusTrismegistus]

Just because something has injuries in its competitions does not mean that there are not even more dangerous techniques that are not allowed. It is also simply common sense that when the focus of practice becomes to win competitions then techniques that are not allowed in competitions fall by the wayside and eventually disappear. Yes the legal SC and Judo techniques are dangerous, but is stupid to assume that the illegal moves are somehow not more dangerous, if they weren't more dangerous then they would be legal.

[Fubo]

A Judo throw like Osoto Gari can land you on your head, and can be fatal on the street, yet is legal in competition - Kani Basami (flying scissors take down) is illegal in Judo competition because too many people were getting broken knees. A lot of throws that can be very dangerous can be trained on mats and used to some degree of safety in a controlled context.

So, we have throws that can be deadly, but can be practiced and tested in a controlled context (randori, shiai, mats) and we have things that can't really be practiced to any realistic degree like neck breaks etc... which one is more deadly?

Unless you have a line of people lining up willing to have their neck broken with deadly neck breaking techniques, how will you know if you can actually pull it off - and if you don't know if you can pull it off how can it really be considered more deadly then Osoto Gari in the street when Osoto can cause just as much damage and can actually be train and tested?

So, in response to your statement about more dangerous techniques being illegal in competition because they are more dangerous... this is in the context of competition, but take the Osoto Gari, Tai Otoshi, Seoi nage (all can land you on your head) etc... off the mat and on to concrete... which is most dangerous? Especially since thoughs throws can be practiced over and over again full speed, full power and against fully resisting opponents. It is stupid to assume that illegal techniques are more dangerous then legal techniques... the throws just cause less injuries (in some cases) in the context of a matted surface.

[CaliG]

Just because something has injuries in its competitions does not mean that there are not even more dangerous techniques that are not allowed. It is also simply common sense that when the focus of practice becomes to win competitions then techniques that are not allowed in competitions fall by the wayside and eventually disappear. Yes the legal SC and Judo techniques are dangerous, but is stupid to assume that the illegal moves are somehow not more dangerous, if they weren't more dangerous then they would be legal.

I'm just curious have you ever been in a Sc, judo, wrestling or bjj competition?

Because those guys have some serious moves that could easily be adjusted to cause someone some serious harm. Take the fireman's carry for example you could easily drop someone on their head with that move, but thank goodness in competition when people do it they pull the head to their body so that the opponent doesn't spend the rest of the week in the hospital

I can remember once in bjj when a friend of mine caught a new up and coming player in a biceps slicer. The other guy felt the pain but didn't think it could cause him any real harm so he didn't tap and the two bones in his forearm snapped. At the time all the students in the school were in shock but then we started to remember that although rolling can be like a game these techniques were meant to maim.

Also I don't know why there are guys on here claiming that judo is somehow watering down things, because most judo instructors I have trained with also knew Japanese jujitsu, small circle jujitsu and (with my current teacher) combat sambo. But I usually their judo classes because the focus was very clear how to throw.

I'd also add that Crosley Gracie teaches the classical Japanese system of jujitsu the Gracies were taught.

So the dangerous moves are there but we don't use them in competition, I suppose you could ask what's the point in which case I'll refer you to this thread.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=568 Basically the idea is that you are going against with someone who doesn't want to allow you do your moves, no it's not a real fight, but it's the closest thing to a real fight against someone who has some fighting skill. (Even the streets can't guarantee that.)

[MAFAN]

A punch can be lethal- not banned from a host of things. (ok, I am just shit stirring now)
Everyone just take a deep breath huh?

[CaliG]

It's cool I'm not upset, I just think someone gave someone some debatable information.

Good times,