the rum soaked fist: internal martial arts forum

As the title.



We use the turning of the hand in one of our Zuan Quan turns. How do you apply this move in your system? (I don't know if all Bagua systems have this move). And for the non-bagua players out there, do you have this kind of move in your art?. Thanks in advance.

(Later I'll post some XYLHQ apps by Li Rubo, and some XYQ apps from Li Yushuan's book..if my scanner gets nice with me)

bat falls to the ground from "jrq" bagua is one of my favorites. i will see if i can video something this weekend.

Interesting. You guys turn and twist like this with your Zuan Felipe? Or am I misunderstanding you?
Jake

Would be interesting to see the transition to the next move, because it could be a counter to an arm bar. Just an idea...

Well I study that system of Pakua, the move after that is 'swallow skims water' I think that is the translation, I be only moderate at translating.

1: What I use the move for is doing something like a single leg take-down, but it only works when I put the leg behind the person in the following move. It will require the upwards twist as you lift going threw there body. Your mid torso will hit at there knee, the arm will reach for the rear leg to send there weight backwards, than step across-behind them as the picture is suggesting the next move is that, pivot your torso toward them as you stand. This is a throw that lands them on there back.

I do not have a video camera nor do I have video of this it does work. You have to use this move more after you engage there upper body and create the forward intent on contact than slide down. If you fail to get the torso all the way against the leg they will step back you can still and will usually trip them.

2: The instructor I trained with would do it as a inside trap on a higher kick. It worked for him. I could never get that to work for me. It would end up with a throw as well very similar to the throw I describe above. Think like you are creating a outward slap upward in this one when the leg is extended you bring in this case the left hand circling under and catching the leg, both hands slap outwards at same time. I ended up getting kicked more than once trying that, to the face also. The throw he could do was forwards throw for the opponent.

JAB wrote:Interesting. You guys turn and twist like this with your Zuan Felipe? Or am I misunderstanding you?
Jake

Jake:

Imagine you are in a left Zuan Quan.

a). Your right hand travels down the right side of your body, as your right leg slides down. You end up in the "Snake creeps down" posture from Taiji, your extended right foot pointing to the opposite direction that your body was. The hands are in the same position as fig. 2 from the image above.

b) The weight of your body starts to shift to your left leg, and you start to rise up, bringing back the right foot, as your front hand (the right hand), twists like in the figure. Your hand describes a circle inside your center, and it goes back out in zuan. Your right foot advances.

I don't have this move in the styles I do, however from the discription it appears that it could be used for a retreating pull down using a kind of reverse stealing step (to put the opp in a somewhat crumpled position) before throw, take-down or strike. If I was being pressured and had to take this backward step I think the hands would be different during the uncoiling (fig4.42). Maybe right hand come forward as right leg goes back, to strike or split (leg and hand).

Also, the left (turning) hand could be used to deflect an incoming strike (right hand) , then switching contact points (i.e. left hand under opps arm, and back hand pulling opps arm) to split and stretch the opps arm out, and/or employ the arm spiral to shoulder throw or takedown.

The whole leg lock thing is a bit ambitious for me at this stage.


Off the top of my head.

I think we have something like that, except the legs are not doing that kind of step. As it was showed me, It can be a simple deflection and strike with the left arm, or a deflection (with the left arm) followed with a grab with the right hand and pull across the body into an arm break(with the shoulder)that is also a throw.

Also, the left (turning) hand could be used to deflect an incoming strike (right hand) , then switching contact points (i.e. left hand under opps arm, and back hand pulling opps arm) to split and stretch the opps arm out, and/or employ the arm spiral to shoulder throw or takedown.

That's the one I'm talking about as well. when you pull, you use your shoulder to strike the elbow joint.

Felipe Bidó wrote:b) The weight of your body starts to shift to your left leg, and you start to rise up, bringing back the right foot, as your front hand (the right hand), twists like in the figure. Your hand describes a circle inside your center, and it goes back out in zuan. Your right foot advances.

Shifts to left leg? Not right leg?

I didn't know that there were any "bat" moves in bagua... ha ha...

Looks like a split entry followed by a nice tabling takedown. I do that one in my sleep.

Could be a locking deflection then a throat stab/grab and pull (?)

The resting stance exists in many CMA styles. It should be a transaction stance only. There are so many weak point in this stance. The moment that you can forget this stance, the moment that you understand the word "speed". For example, the basic method to do a hip throw:

- Start from a cat stance,
- Turn into a "resting stance", and
- Turn into a horse stance.

If you can execute your hip throw as:

- Start from a cat stance, and
- "Hop" into a horse stance.

then your move will be much faster. As long as you have "resting stance" in mind, your body spinning will not be fast enough.

You know I have Jerry Allen Johnsons video, he does the first part of the fourth palm change with the idea of upwards strike the other hand with that lock the arm of the opponent and into this move you are locking them across you. I have never been able to get that idea to work, it is to intricate for me.

gasmaster wrote:

Also, the left (turning) hand could be used to deflect an incoming strike (right hand) , then switching contact points (i.e. left hand under opps arm, and back hand pulling opps arm) to split and stretch the opps arm out, and/or employ the arm spiral to shoulder throw or takedown.

That's the one I'm talking about as well. when you pull, you use your shoulder to strike the elbow joint.

I agree with this application, though it was pointed out to me that the outside edge of the advancing foot can be used as a jamming technique by sliding it into the inside edge of the opponent's foot(this also aides in setting up the elbow break/throw).