Just "How much" Zhan Zhuang required for unified mechanics

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Just "How much" Zhan Zhuang required for unified mechanics

Postby Bugang on Thu Sep 29, 2016 1:37 pm

edededed wrote:Ma Yueliang certainly had sets of neigong, including standing methods, and his taijiquan was considered top notch; the Zhaobao folks also have interesting sets of jibengong, some of which have been opened to the public, and others which have yet to be (if ever), although I don't know if zhanzhuang is in there. Some have said that Yang style also has some of the same neigong as Ma Yueliang did, but I dunno.


Could you please elaborate about that? (His son MJB says he hadn't) Please share with us where you got the Information.
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Re: Just "How much" Zhan Zhuang required for unified mechanics

Postby Bugang on Thu Sep 29, 2016 1:43 pm

D_Glenn wrote:
Andy_S wrote:
D-Glenn (and/or anyone else):



these I believe are old practices, I learned some of it from Chen Pan Ling taiji and more of the practice in my Baguazhang. Basically they are holding the ball at center posture, turning to the left with left hand on top and right hand on the bottom of the ball posture, and opposite when turning to the right side, these postures seem like Wang's second posture.


.


Same in Yang (Sau Chung) (and Wu (Jian Quan) ) Style.
Well it's (in Yang) the beginning of the move that ends with "peng position" so it should be common in Taijiquan.
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Re: Just "How much" Zhan Zhuang required for unified mechanics

Postby Bugang on Thu Sep 29, 2016 1:53 pm

jjy5016 wrote:
As for Docherty's taiji 24 nei kung....
There's another one withthe hands held high above the head and the wrists bent. Also similar to a yiquan posture. There's also a single leg weighted stance similar to some of yiquan's higher postures but the hand & arm positions are completely different. There's another one very similar to the one that John Wang posted earlier in the thread, again with the arms held in a different manner.


I agree with what you wrote about the Rhino.
But given the last sentences you wrote we have to be aware - let's put it this way - that the arms make a big difference :) I mean if the feet are "same" and the arms different, there is a temptation to see the similaritie, - which is an important hermeneutic ability - but we should also consider differences for what they are and accept that partial similaritiers don't make exercises identical, given that there is a limited amoount of possible positions with the given limbs and joints :)
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Re: Just "How much" Zhan Zhuang required for unified mechanics

Postby Bugang on Thu Sep 29, 2016 2:04 pm

Void wrote:
johnwang wrote:The hardest Zhuang kung is "羅漢观天 (Luo Han Guan Tian) Lou Han looks at sky" (also called iron bridge) that you stand with both feet parallel as wide as your shoulder, you bend your upper body backward so your upper body is parallel to the ground. It’s hard to breath comfortably in that position.


I used to do this one a lot. A very powerful exercise.


Could you share what are the main Points of focus and the achievement it brings?
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Re: Just "How much" Zhan Zhuang required for unified mechanics

Postby Bugang on Thu Sep 29, 2016 2:48 pm

Slim wrote:If I honestly consider my practice of Taijiquan as on some level performance, no matter how abstract I take the notion of performance to be I don't seem to be able to do it. What I have learnt from my teachers, even in terms of the 'basic' form, is not performance as everything we practice is martially accounted for. There is nothing superfluous that might be the leftover influence of some sordid past affair with the world of theatre. And what is the 'basic' form of a system? From my experience both within the Quan of Chen Yu and my Wu style Taijiquan Teacher the form is constantly modified as a student progresses, there is no basic nor standard routine to perform. And from a martial perspective why would one show his Quan to another anyway?

As a student of Chinese history I can see that the ties between some martial art and theatre throughout Chinese history are no doubt strong and manifold. However as a practitioner within a specific tradition I just can't see it within what I practice, and doubt it was ever there.


Slim and all that call the Ideas around MA and Theatre ridiculous: Did you at least read a bit of the article given by winter dragon? I can understand that you are afraid that your hard training could be messed with "just being show" like the modern wushu stuff. But that's not what the Article and SP say. It's about Martial (real) Training and Theater combat developing in close interaction and benefiting from each other.

E.G.:

"...Robert Fortune, an Englishman, witnessed one such performance in rural
China sometime between 1853 and 1856, and left the following account:

An actor rushed upon the stage amid the clashing of timbrels, beating
of gongs, and squeaking of other instruments. He was brandishing a
short sword in each hand, now and then wheeling round apparently to
protect himself in the rear, and all the time performing the most
extraordinary actions with his feet, which seemed as if they had to do
as much of the fighting as the hands. People who have seen much of the
manoeuvering of Chinese troops will not call this unnatural acting.
[68]

As Fortune noted, such stage fighting was an accurate, if exaggerated,
portrayal of actual Chinese fighting techniques. It would be a mistake,
however, to dismiss this theatrical tradition as a mere imitation of the
real martial arts. Image and reality have reflected each other for
millennia, and real martial artists have often found the most practical use
for their skills in earning a living as entertainers.

In late imperial times Boxers toured the countryside, fighting in
competitions at market fairs as a way of life......

...In China the martial arts are far more than just techniques of hand-to-hand
combat, although actual fighting skills are indeed traceable far back into
antiquity. In China the martial arts are an aspect of religion, with all of
the attendant mystery and miracles. At the same time, the public face of
the martial arts has often been that of the entertainer, and the self-image
of the martial artist has been thoroughly imbued with motifs drawn from
fiction and the theater. The martial arts of today must be understood as a
confluence of China's unique approach to physical combat, Buddho-Taoist
religion, and theater"

I think somewhere I have a book on this topic by scott (?) worth a read
Last edited by Bugang on Thu Sep 29, 2016 2:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Just "How much" Zhan Zhuang required for unified mechanics

Postby san5324 on Sun Oct 02, 2016 5:19 am

My teacher told me once that it would take a minimum of 3 months, and everyday at least 30 minutes in a correct posture before you would have gotten any form of full body movement connection. Many people lose the correct position after 10 minutes.
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Re: Just "How much" Zhan Zhuang required for unified mechanics

Postby northerndevotee on Tue Oct 04, 2016 8:36 am

3 months 40 min a day no skipping is what i was told and did. This was by a chen guy and i found i was able to to rotate the dan tien after this. As i progressed i found raising and sinking up and over more satisfying
But a freind who learned from wang pei sheng after seeing what i was doing admonished me not to deliberately stir up my chi!
Now i look for complete stilness inside and out and seek to 'light the furnace' this i still find very hard but when done is i think the most beneficial way of practicing zz.
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Re: Just "How much" Zhan Zhuang required for unified mechanics

Postby Peacedog on Fri Oct 07, 2016 4:28 pm

If holding posture is used to build structure an hour, or two, per day for 1-2 years seems to be sufficient. However this needs to be teamed with movement based methodologies and partner practices to really bring it all together otherwise people seem to develop the "dead energy" thing practitioners on this board have already mentioned.

The end result of this is a fairly thick sheet of fascia that links the extremities and torso together. On most practitioners this can be felt in the area of the serratus anterior muscles.

If it is being used for yogic/meditative development that is another issue, but more than 2-3 hours at a time seems to create problems for most people. And if anyone brings up the issue of monks who sit for hours/days at a time, I would ask you to take a really good look at these people. They are all physically a wreck with loads of health problems.

Having spoken with a number of fairly advanced practitioners over the years the consensus is that BK Francis' extended standing practices basically fried the discs in his back and are the main source of his current health problems. Sure he generated a shit-ton of power that way, but he is currently paying for it and he is not that old. I've seen similar problems with people who engaged in like practices.

Interestingly, people who engage in circle walking as a power generation method, assuming they don't fuck up their knees/hips, generally seems to do better long term with regards to health, etc.

I've long suspected that sitting and standing for long periods of time is essentially unhealthy. A quick way to generate power, but as far as health is concerned movement seems to be better for most people. Caveat emptor!
Last edited by Peacedog on Fri Oct 07, 2016 4:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Just "How much" Zhan Zhuang required for unified mechanics

Postby yeniseri on Sun Oct 09, 2016 9:18 pm

Following the" Bell Curve" template (generic descriptive) those to the "left" will take around 10-12 days! to see a benefit, those to the right of the curve will never reach/experience a benefit because they are too lazy, will not spend the required time, will not understand the "concept", while those in the middle, with variants of practice reach adequate levels of fitness with 'staking' based on a concerted effect it may take 6 months or longer.
To add, I use the 100 days figuratively because the background of zhanzhuang and use of a health/fitness/wellness paradigm, tends to lack a frame of reference on explanations and "medical" language as a point of understanding since Neijing and Suwen lacks this body of common knowledge and understanding. Due to the difference paradigm, it needs further investigation despite the unique language and era. When you add pre and post Cultural Revolution dynamic of "Out with the old, In with the new," slogan, a new and different concept has been created.

Interestingly, my first references on clarity was with some Yiquan work where documentation of frequency and duration of zz mechanics is sort of mentioned along with benefits with the immune system.
Last edited by yeniseri on Sun Oct 09, 2016 9:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Just "How much" Zhan Zhuang required for unified mechanics

Postby kenneth fish on Tue Oct 11, 2016 2:07 pm

Zero standing is required. There are other ways to train to achieve that goal. Your mileage may vary.
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Re: Just "How much" Zhan Zhuang required for unified mechanics

Postby Mr_Wood on Tue Oct 11, 2016 2:24 pm

I find standing very therapeutic but I have to agree with Ken, in fact its probably the longer way round to unify mechanics. movement and repetition is necessary, if you wish to unify standing still then yes do it 8 hours a day, if you wish to unify fluid motion then you should practice this 8 hours a day or however long you have. Better to try make it how you move all day everyday. That being said you have to feel the connection which is usually felt in slower movement.
Last edited by Mr_Wood on Tue Oct 11, 2016 2:28 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Just "How much" Zhan Zhuang required for unified mechanics

Postby Niall Keane on Tue Oct 11, 2016 2:51 pm

Consider Driving...

would sitting in a parked car help us become better drivers?

sure the beginner might learn a bit about spatial factors, how to turn on the lights and such basics. A bit like the beginner at XingYi did Santi.

Once we can drive, would it be useful to spend 5 hours a day sitting in a parked car?

I can understand limited revision once the basics are mastered, but making such the bulk of practice, which long hours would demand, especially given the human ability to take in 5 hours max a day of learning, just doesn't make sense.

Now, my own system has a neigung set containing a mix of static and movement exercises. "Embrace the One" is a "standing" posture practiced itself from 2 minutes at basic level to 10 at fighter level and also after each exercise, so doing 13-24 exercises a day one does get all the benefits of developing kinaesthetic ability found in the usual "tree-hugging" postures. But the other exercises in the set develop an innate ability to counter and recover by flowing into constant gathering and issue of connected power, so you end up developing all the "internal" attributes of IMAs with one set of exercises that takes 45 minutes at basic level, 2 hours at fighter level and 7 at master. Then again that is exactly what nei gung is supposed to do in any of the IMAs, and why it is an essential ingredient of IMAs. I'm not sure if the Yi-Chuan lads are being 100% honest about how little is involved in their "standing", but I cannot believe the face-value claim that one can develop martial skill just standing!!! There is far, far too much more to it all, although I can see the appeal of a single magic formula to the lazy public student.
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Re: Just "How much" Zhan Zhuang required for unified mechanics

Postby yeniseri on Wed Oct 12, 2016 9:22 am

kenneth fish wrote:Zero standing is required. There are other ways to train to achieve that goal. Your mileage may vary.


Agreed!
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Re: Just "How much" Zhan Zhuang required for unified mechanics

Postby Overlord on Wed Oct 12, 2016 11:08 am

I believe people are mixing up ZZ with unified mechanics as a goal.
We human is a living and breathing entity, not machine so why emphasis unified mechanics.
People who mix this up is a no, and people who refuse doing ZZ thinking it's irrelevance to unified mechanics is a big double no no~
No ZZ then cannot attend higher level of kungfu.
One of Guo Yunsheng major contribution is brought Huanyuan ZZ and Monkey Xing to Xingyi school.
Guo studied Monkey fist and Baji before learning Xingyi, Liu Qilan like wise studied Baji before Xingyi.
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Re: Just "How much" Zhan Zhuang required for unified mechanics

Postby Bao on Wed Oct 12, 2016 1:42 pm

Train, mileage, driving, cars... Funny discussion.

If you try pushing a car you will probably learn ten times more about "connection" than just standing there trying to feel harmony.
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