Just "How much" Zhan Zhuang required for unified mechanics

[Alexander]

Alrighty, so I was pondering this today. Zhan zhuang, at least in one of its forms, is designed to condition the body to be used in a combined manor. Wang Xiangzhai's serious students supposedly had to hold the postures 5 hours a day, in all forms of weather, to condition the body to be used as a whole.

Now, I remembered a study I read regarding memory, neuroplasticity, and bodily conditioning. A big catch phrase was that neurons that "fire together, wire together". Monkeys were taken, and certain fingers were sewn together. The monkeys got used to using those 2 fingers as one unified finger -- these were brand new neural pathways embedded in the brain. After a period of time (months?), the stitches were undone, and lo and behold, the monks could not use the fingers individually -- only combined. They had to be retrained to use each finger individually before they could do it reflexively.

In my opinion, zhan zhuang is designed to do exactly this. It creates the (ideally) permanent habit of using your entire body as a tool.

But are 30 minutes, or even > 1 hour going to imbed that type of conditioning?

[jss]

Well, if the effect of your zhan zhuang practice does not carry over to your day-to-day movement, it wouldn't carry over to your fighting either, now would they? So I think it's better to look at it like this: zhan zhuang = high intensity training, rest of the day = low intensity training. And not: zhan zhuang = training, rest of the day = no training.

[GrahamB]

If you've got 5 hours a day to stand around, you're either being paid for it, or you need to work out where your real priorities lie...

[yeniseri]

Alrighty, so I was pondering this today. Zhan zhuang, at least in one of its forms, is designed to condition the body to be used in a combined manor. Wang Xiangzhai's serious students supposedly had to hold the postures 5 hours a day, in all forms of weather, to condition the body to be used as a whole.

Now, I remembered a study I read regarding memory, neuroplasticity, and bodily conditioning. A big catch phrase was that neurons that "fire together, wire together". Monkeys were taken, and certain fingers were sewn together. The monkeys got used to using those 2 fingers as one unified finger -- these were brand new neural pathways embedded in the brain. After a period of time (months?), the stitches were undone, and lo and behold, the monks could not use the fingers individually -- only combined. They had to be retrained to use each finger individually before they could do it reflexively.

In my opinion, zhan zhuang is designed to do exactly this. It creates the (ideally) permanent habit of using your entire body as a tool.

But are 30 minutes, or even > 1 hour going to imbed that type of conditioning?

Based on the sedentary nature of modern society, more time would be needed to develop that "unified mechanics" outcome while saying too much of it will lead to stagnation. One can gain martial skill without zhanzhuang but the latter does build more 'gong' into whatever art one is studying.

I am just guessing here but 2 hours 3x/week with walking 5 days a week. You have both yin and yang working together!

[johnwang]

hold the postures 5 hours a day,

My teacher's brother told me that ZZ kept him alive when he was in jail. If you are not in jail, there are other training better than ZZ.

[kshurika]

If you've got 5 hours a day to stand around, you're either being paid for it, or you need to work out where your real priorities lie...

Awesome! I really could NOT have stated this better myself. You could devote 4 1/2 hours to practicing forms, bag work, sparring and - I don't want to get crazy here - maybe reading a book.

[bruce]

i wonder how many people have really practiced like that? holding a posture for 5 hours? i do find a lot of value in various standing meditation (or what ever you want to call it) but devoting that much time to it may not be of any real value. if you disagree tell me why and what you have gained in your own practice if you have stood for 5 hours per day or even 1 or 2 hours...

[Bhassler]

Zhan Zhuang practice can vary dramatically depending upon the tradition from which it comes and what the individual was taught. If you're talking zhan zhuang as a proprioceptive tool for basic skeletal alignment, it will vary from individual to individual based on personality, background, and who knows how many other factors. Some people can get a lot out of it, others not so much-- but as for what is NEEDED to improve skeletal alignment, then the answer is none at all.

If someone is using zhan zhuang as a qigong (assuming they know what they're doing) then it becomes a conditioning exercise, so the more one does then the more power one can develop-- but in that case it's less an issue of "unified mechanics" and more an issue of developing very particular muscle groups and coordinations within the body. But again in this scenario, zhan zhuang is one method, and there are many others. Mileage will vary depending upon the individual.

Meditation would be a whole different ball of wax as well.

As far as hard wiring certain mechanics, there's no guarantee that the mechanics would generalize from a static posture to dynamic movement-- in my experience it works better as a conditioning tool than as a mode of somatic education. If you want to learn how to coordinate the body, I think there are other methods that are designed to do that more broadly and effectively than zz.

[Alexander]

If you want to learn how to coordinate the body, I think there are other methods that are designed to do that more broadly and effectively than zz.

Do share

[DeusTrismegistus]

Honestly where my current understanding is I would say that thinking of standing as a method of training to use the entire body as a tool is kind of missing the point, or at least making it smaller than it should be.

Neural training (if such a thing can be said to exist in any meaningful way) is done through movement. In standing you have the lack of physical movement for the most part. So how can the lack of movement train the body to work together as a whole? In what manner do you mean work the body as a whole? Because kinetic linking is widely considered whole body usage but the timing involved in specific movement which is sequential and overlapping is not going to be trained by holding a static posture.

Right now I think of standing as two types. The first is more qigong with eyes closed and comfortable stance. This is for cultivation. The second is holding stances like holding the tree or santi. I view santi as first ingraining the posture so it can be assumed without thought and very quickly. It also trains to be very relaxed and comfortable in an unusual position. Both have mental training as well and I think that the mental training is what standing is for primarily.

Almost forgot.

As for how long you need to practice this, I think that depends very much on the specific standing you are doing, your goals, and your skill. A meditative standing posture will be beneficial however long you hold it and do so skillfully. The physical training aspects would most likely suffer diminishing returns after about 30 minutes or sooner. You would likely benefit more from spreading the practice out and instead of doing an hour all at once doing an hour total in 4 sessions throughout the day.

[Andy_S]

The only person I have heard of who did ZZ for 5 hours a day is Kumar...he claims the Taikiken people in Japan would do this kind of training.

Personally I do 15-30 mis of ZZ at the start of each training session to get aligned, calm the mind, regulate the breathing and generally enter the zone. I find my training sessions are generally more productive if I have done ZZ at the start than not.

I would agree with John that it is not the be-all and end-all. I remember reading about IChuan people who did a lot of this training to the point where they could simply bounce attackers off them - a which would massively empower their martial technique. Sadly, recent video evidence of IChuan in application does not support this. So, either the present generation have lost this skill or, more likely, it was a great exaggeration.

AFAIK, ZZ is a relatively recent addition to Taiji (20th century), influenced by Wang's work. (And Wang, of course, was working from HsingI, which has the santi stance holding method). Perhaps there was also stance holding work in early Taiji - Yang Chengfu was said to spend lenghty times holding just two postures for compressive and expansive energies. Still, some people do not do ZZ at all. I asked Dan Docherty, whose Taiji has a strong neigong component about ZZ, and his reply was, "I'd rather watch paint dry!"

[Strange]

having said all that, i think it is also fair to add that a characteristic of internal studies is to give enrich simple movements and postures with a lot of meaning, visualization and intent. for me this is nei han*, or internal content. if one feels that it can be achieve without the traditional practice of zz, then one is free to pursue one's own course. but having said that, if one is not able to feel 'it' practicing zz, one should not think that the 'thing' is not there.

cheers, S.
* yes, of course, nei han in chinese have a big component of 'cultivation' in its meaning

[D_Glenn]

AFAIK, ZZ is a relatively recent addition to Taiji (20th century), influenced by Wang's work. (And Wang, of course, was working from HsingI, which has the santi stance holding method). Perhaps there was also stance holding work in early Taiji - Yang Chengfu was said to spend lenghty times holding just two postures for compressive and expansive energies. Still, some people do not do ZZ at all. I asked Dan Docherty, whose Taiji has a strong neigong component about ZZ, and his reply was, "I'd rather watch paint dry!"

Are you serious?

Taijiquan is moving Zhan Zhuang. Every move in the form is a ZZ stance. Do the form once through over a 2 hour period and you will have stood each posture for the needed amount of time.

ZZ is a fundamental practice in CMAs dating back to the beginning.


******
A,
If you hold a martial posture (not qigong) with Intent going out to the extremities then any human body only has enough energy to support the posture for around 6 minutes, after which you will only get diminished returns. To make sure you don't hit that threshold work towards a maximum of 5 minutes than switch to a different posture that uses different muscle groups. A daily minimum of 20-30 minutes to see some progress.

ZZ can be traced back to Indian Yoga Warrior postures. Similar requirements, similar time standing.

.

[chimerical tortoise]

Afaik, Chu Shong Tin's wing chun training involves almost all zz and very little else. Hence his nickname, "King of Siu Nim Tau".

[kshurika]

ZZ can be traced back to Indian Yoga Warrior postures. Similar requirements, similar time standing.

I'm not challenging you, but, as someone who does yoga, I'd like to know what the historical connections are between ZZ and the Virabhadrasana poses. It is true that you get more benefit from holding yoga standing poses (utthista sthiti) for longer periods. But, by that, I mean a matter of minutes. Iyengar has done 15-20 minutes on each side. But hours?