Does Shanxi XY do a Tan Toi set?

Discussion on the three big Chinese internals, Yiquan, Bajiquan, Piguazhang and other similar styles.

Re: Does Shanxi XY do a Tan Toi set?

Postby WongYing on Tue Jul 01, 2008 10:39 am

Sal,

Thanks for your reply. My input, Eagle Claw was allready quite cohesive before ChenTziChing's time, agreed he did add two further rows of techniques to Xing Chuan or 10 Road of Eagle Claw. CTC was a student of Liu Chung Yo/Lau Sing Yau(who learned from Liu SiChun) not Liu De Kuan, he may have had some exposure to Liu De Kuan if/when Liu De Kuan returned to Baoding.

It is said that Liu De Kuan learned the complete system from Liu SiChun, who also knew Liu He Chuan - Six Harmony boxing, which Liu De Kuan also knew. Liu Si Chun had/was allready combing the more commonly seen eagle claw skills within is BaFanShou/Liu He Chaun before Liu De Kuan - All though it did develop further. This was during Liu Si Chuns time in Beijing

Liu SiChun passed the system onto Liu Chung Yo( Lau SingYau) who intern taught Liu Chi Wen/Lau Lai Men and ChenZiCheng. Taught in Baoding

The TanTui is from ShangHai ChinWoo- agreed

This information is based on direct site survey in Baoding

Regards
Last edited by WongYing on Tue Jul 01, 2008 10:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Does Shanxi XY do a Tan Toi set?

Postby salcanzonieri on Tue Jul 01, 2008 11:49 am

WongYing wrote:Sal,

Thanks for your reply. My input, Eagle Claw was allready quite cohesive before ChenTziChing's time, agreed he did add two further rows of techniques to Xing Chuan or 10 Road of Eagle Claw. CTC was a student of Liu Chung Yo/Lau Sing Yau(who learned from Liu SiChun) not Liu De Kuan, he may have had some exposure to Liu De Kuan if/when Liu De Kuan returned to Baoding.

It is said that Liu De Kuan learned the complete system from Liu SiChun, who also knew Liu He Chuan - Six Harmony boxing, which Liu De Kuan also knew. Liu Si Chun had/was allready combing the more commonly seen eagle claw skills within is BaFanShou/Liu He Chaun before Liu De Kuan - All though it did develop further. This was during Liu Si Chuns time in Beijing

Liu SiChun passed the system onto Liu Chung Yo( Lau SingYau) who intern taught Liu Chi Wen/Lau Lai Men and ChenZiCheng. Taught in Baoding

The TanTui is from ShangHai ChinWoo- agreed

This information is based on direct site survey in Baoding

Regards


Found a copy of my post at the kungfumagazine forums:

In Hebei Province, Liu Dekuan, a Liuhe Quan practioner went to Beijing and while holding a post in the imperial palace studied Yue Style San Shou and other things with Liu Shijun of Xiong County, Hebei. Shijun's spear methods were excellent, Dekuan continued the tradition, also mastering the big spear, for which he is famous. Another of Liu Shijin's students, Liu Chengyou, taught Yue Fei San Shou style to Chen Zizheng, who later combined the punching and kicking from Shaolin Kung Fu along with the techniques of Ba Fan Shou (grabbing and controlling, pressure point attacking, dianxue) and developed a new style of martial art. This art was then known as Yingzhao Quan (Eagle Claw). He also gathered Yue Shi San Shou techniques and Fan Zi techniques, creating thus two new taolu (forms) which are called Shi Lu Xing Quan (10 ways of moving punch) and Wu Shi Lu Lian Quan (50 ways of continuous punch).

THUS, Liu Chen You's teaching, via Chen ZiZheng, is the actual creator of Ying Zhao-Fantzi style, since Liu Shijun and Liu Dekuan practiced only Yue Fei San Shou (and Liuhe Quan). Even though Liuhe Quan and Yue Fei San Shou and Fantzi were already related to each other.

The Liu family developed their own styles of Eagle Claw, Liu He Quan (Six Harmony boxing), and Yue Jia Quan (Yue Family boxing).

Li Guanming becomes the first generation Cangzhou, Hebei province representative of Liuhe Quan (6 Harmony boxing).
Concerning Li Guanming's teacher, there are three references: Cao Peng, Shi Jinke, or Chu Wentai.
Li Guanming taught Li Fenggang, Tong Cun, Wang Dianchen, and Liu Yuting.

Tian Chungui and Li Fenggang taught Liu Dekuan (Big Spear Liu). Li Fenggang also taught Wang Zhengyi (Big Saber Wang Wu) and others.

Liu Dekuan went to Beijing and while holding a post in the imperial palace studied Yue Style Sanshou and other things with Liu Shijun of Xiong County, Hebei.

1. Li Quan, of the Ming Dynasty, mastered the essentials of the Yue-style Quan. Li taught the style to Monk Fa Cheng who later passed it on to Liu Shijun of Xiongxian County in Hebei Province.

2. Three years later Liu left his master to travel alone. Liu Shijun served as martial arts instructor at the barracks of imperial guards in Beijing during the Qing Dynasty and taught Liu Dekuan (1826-1911), Ji San, Ji Zixiu, and nephew Liu Chengyou.

3a. Liu Dekuan's learned Yueh Style San Shou (also called Yueh Style Eagle Hand or Yueh Style Connected Fists). He learned this from Hebei Xiong County Liu Shijun. De Kuan first studied with Shijun's student Xu Liu and then later he studied with Shijun. Shijun's spear methods were excellent, Dekuan continued the tradition. He also used the big spear, for which he is famous.

So, at this time, the style was still called Yueh style San Shou and not Eagle Claw (Ying Zhao).

Many of Liu Dekuan’s students created some new routines and called them “Fanzi Quan”.

Liu De kuan was drawn into Bagua System through the Cheng Style, and assisted Cheng Tinghua in expanding Bagua System everywhere. Liu De Kuan also contributed to the Bagua System. Cheng Style Bagua students train the Six Lines of the Halberd. This comes from Liu De Kuan.


3b. Ji Zixiu, (of the third generation, student of Liu Shijun) kept the original style of Ba Fan Shou. He was known as “Iron Arm Ji”, famous for having a full wagon load of rice run over his arm without causing harm. He was also a major student of Yang Lu Chan, the founder of the Old Style Yang Taiji. Ba Fan Shou was a hard style and Taiji is a soft style. Ji Zixiu combined them, making a new style of Ba Fan Shou. In the early 19th Century, Wang Xin Wu studied Ba Fan Shou and Yang style taiji from Ji Zixiu, Xu Yusheng and Wu Jian Quan (founder of Wu’s style taiji). Wang then taught Hao Xueru, Shen Zi Rong, Ma Yeju, etc. Chen Junhao studied Ba Fan Shou from Mr. Hao Xueru and Shen Zi Rong.

3c. Liu Chengyou (of the third generation, student of Liu Shijun) passed it on to his sister's grandson Chen Zizheng (1873 - 1933), who went to teach the art in northeast China, Shanghai and Guangzhou.

4. Chen Zizheng combined the punching and kicking from Shaolin Kung Fu along with the techniques of Ba Fan Shou (grabbing and controlling, pressure point attacking, dianxue) and developed a new style of martial art. This art was then known as Yingzhao Quan (Eagle Claw). The essence of Eagle Claw is to hit the enemy while grabbing and controlling when your hands move backwards to your body. He gathered Yue Shi San Shou tecniques and Fan Zi techniques, creating thus two new taolu (forms), which are called Shi Lu Xing Quan (10 ways of moving punch) and Wu Shi Lu Lian Quan (50 ways of continuous punch).
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Re: Does Shanxi XY do a Tan Toi set?

Postby salcanzonieri on Tue Jul 01, 2008 12:11 pm

Another interesting thing related to tan tui and eagle claw:

There is a 6 Harmony Tan Tui set, 12 rows, very different from Cha Quan system's 10 tan tui rows, from Liu's 6 Harmony Quan style.
The way the movements are made are more like the rows in Yue Shi Ba Fan Shou than other the better known tan tui sets.

Also, the first row in all tan tui sets, 10 or 12 rows, is actually from the Cha Quan system's Pao Quan sets. The beginning piece of some of their Pao Quan sets (not related at all to Pao Quan from Henan or TJQ) has pretty much the same movements as row one now seen in most standard tan tui sets.

The 10 tan tui was developed long ago by taking foundational material from various sets in the Cha Quan system and making them into drill like actions. But originally, and these sets still exist, their Tui Quan sets, which are very long, contain most of the movements seen in the tan tui sets, plus a lot more. The Yi Lu (first) set of Cha Quan's Tui Quan sets is very much like 10 tan tui, the other sets (Er Lu, etc) are much more acrobatic with high kicks, etc.
So, the Shanxi Che (and Song?) XY 12 Tan Tui set calls it's first row Pao Quan in Horse Stance, as does the Yue Shi Ba Fan Shou, and these are the same essentially as the first section of Cha Quan's Pao Quan sets (I think the San Lu (3rd)set in particular).

Just the first few rows are the same in most tan tui sets from Cha Quan system. There are 3 different main families that do Cha Quan from different places, each does their tan tui sets differently after the first few rows, also their 10 Cha Quan sets are different from each other too.

The Yue Shi Ba Fan Shou set, according to some people I have heard from since this discussion, that Zhang teaches does have to tan tui kicks, they are implied in the set and are shown when learning the applications.
Also, this set is very good for learning XY, and many Shanxi XY people learn it first. In the first set of 8 rows, the first row can be done with a beng quan flavor, the second row can be done with Pi Quan flavor (stepping and movements) changing to Horse Quan. The stepping movements in this set aren't done with just ma bu and gong bu stances after they are mastered, they are done with XY type stepping and body mechanics.
I can see that if you do row two like Pi Quan into Horse Quan, it flows easily from the postures from splitting to Horse punching.

The movements of Ma (Horse Quan) in XY are the same as the movements for Beng Quan in Shaolin, which they call Bao Quan, leopard first. Bao Quan is often called Pao Quan too.
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Re: Does Shanxi XY do a Tan Toi set?

Postby WongYing on Tue Jul 01, 2008 12:18 pm

Sal,

Interesting, Even ChenTziChings family in Baoding dont credit CTC with being the creator of Eagle Claw. Nor does anyone else in either CTC village or the Liu family village. They all point it back to Liu Si Chun.

Everyone in that area states Shi Lu Xing Chuan was around before CTC, that he only added two extra rows of techniques to it . No doubt he certainly did a lot for eagle claw and it's promotion, but the system was quite cohesive before him. This is agreed upon by family members and descendants in both villages.

Having studied the Chuan Pu in Baoding Govt offices, and from both sets of family. I am inclined to go with the information based on site survey and documents there

I am confused as how you arrive at Liu Chung Yo being a third generation student of LiuSiChunn when he is actually 1st generation, I agree he may not have been LiuSiChun's 1st student, but he certainly was a a 1st generation student of Liu Si Chun

The system was known as Faan Tzi Ying Jow Pai, it was later changed to Ying Jow Faan Tzi Mun.

Thanks for your input and thoughts, it is appreciated. :-)
Last edited by WongYing on Tue Jul 01, 2008 12:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Does Shanxi XY do a Tan Toi set?

Postby WongYing on Tue Jul 01, 2008 12:28 pm

Interesting info on the Tan Tui. Keep it comming :-)
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Re: Does Shanxi XY do a Tan Toi set?

Postby beegs on Tue Jul 01, 2008 5:45 pm

just for curiosity sal, where and what can i look for in xy that is similar to aikido?
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Re: Does Shanxi XY do a Tan Toi set?

Postby Finny on Tue Jul 01, 2008 7:42 pm

In fairness to Sal, he didn't say Aikido looks like XY, he said he had been told by (anonymous) Japanese MA researchers that there was "some historical link" between Ueshiba (founder of Aikido) and XY. Of course we're not told what that "link" is, exactly, or where this info came from.

I really resent you guys making a joke of things and saying stuff like "Sal's classic "it looks the same/similar, so it's from the same source" method", because that is not what I do at all. I have a real process that I use that is from Anthroplogy. And I work with serious researchers around the world. Who taught whom what, when, and where is the major data that is collected. Without that, nothing can be substantiated.


I've made my point Sal, and you continue to follow the same path.

If this is the kind of research style you used in your academic studies, I'm amazed you graduated.

You NEVER provide sources.

You often provide some generic lineage/style historical information, randomly interspersed with your own opinion and conclusions, which are usually along the lines of "looks the same, together with the info I've got (from god knows where), therefore, this is what happened".

I was going to post some examples - but your posts are generally just one big example of what I'm talking about.

But for the sake of my argument:

There is a 6 Harmony Tan Tui set, 12 rows, very different from Cha Quan system's 10 tan tui rows, from Liu's 6 Harmony Quan style.
The way the movements are made are more like the rows in Yue Shi Ba Fan Shou than other the better known tan tui sets.


There is? How do you know? Where is this info from? How do you know that "The way the movements are made are more like the rows in Yue Shi Ba Fan Shou than the other better known tan tui sets"

You often set up an entire argument with a statement like this.

Also, the first row in all tan tui sets, 10 or 12 rows, is actually from the Cha Quan system's Pao Quan sets.


Sources? Again, how do you know? The only 'evidence' you provide to substantiate this claim is:

The beginning piece of some of their Pao Quan sets (not related at all to Pao Quan from Henan or TJQ) has pretty much the same movements as row one now seen in most standard tan tui sets.


See the pattern here?

The 10 tan tui was developed long ago by taking foundational material from various sets in the Cha Quan system and making them into drill like actions.


We know this how, Sal?

Of course:

their Tui Quan sets, which are very long, contain most of the movements seen in the tan tui sets, plus a lot more. The Yi Lu (first) set of Cha Quan's Tui Quan sets is very much like 10 tan tui


As you can see, these examples are only extracted from your last post.

You can resent me all you want for pointing these things out, but I'm not the first to do so, and if you keep it up, I'm sure I won't be the last.

Speculation and opining have their place, and it's not couched in quasi academic rhetoric.

The entire point I was trying to make is that if you try to present yourself as a legitimate researcher, there are standards that must be met.

Simply saying "I have a real process that I use that is from Anthroplogy. And I work with serious researchers around the world." doesn't make it so.

You don't come close to meeting the standards I refer to.

This is not a personal attack on you, it is an attack on your "research method".

I personally know NOTHING about Tan Tui, Xingyiquan, Shaolin Luohan or any of the other styles you discuss. I'm not biased, and I have no agenda.

All I'm critisizing is the manner in which you present your opinions. You backflip between "I'm just thinking out loud here, this is speculation etc." and "I'm a serious researcher, with academic credentials, this is legit research..."

It is one or the other - and IMO it's the former.
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Re: Does Shanxi XY do a Tan Toi set?

Postby edededed on Tue Jul 01, 2008 7:57 pm

I think it is very difficult to compare the movements from one style and another - for one, how do we know that a particular example of a style is authentic, anyway? We can try to find the best lineages, but even finding that, we cannot be sure that the current practitioners were not influenced by popular CMA today (taijiquan, for example); even finding the best, most authentic lineages, we cannot be sure that the current practitioners are not showing watered-down versions, or that they are practicing what their great-grandteachers taught unchanged (just look as how fast baguazhang changed through the generations).

But anyway, there are a few points I am not sure I agree with right now (they might be right, but I haven't seen much to substantiate them here yet):

1. I don't think that Shanxi xingyiquan people teach bafanshou before teaching xingyiquan. Most people just start with xingyiquan, and never learn bafanshou.
2. I doubt any connections between aikido and xingyiquan (or even baguazhang); I can read Japanese, so if that Japanese research is available, I could look it over for you, though.

I don't know much about eagle claw or fanziquan or liuhequan, but I do want to know more about the relationship with the eagle claw fanzi (yingzhaofanzi) and other fanziquan lineages (such as chuojiaofanzi).
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Re: Does Shanxi XY do a Tan Toi set?

Postby salcanzonieri on Tue Jul 01, 2008 8:14 pm

beegs wrote:just for curiosity sal, where and what can i look for in xy that is similar to aikido?


Nothing, that whole paragraph in answer to that post I was being sarcastic, sorry if it was taken seriously. I was pointing out what if often said about those styles, like the original poster was doing. Didn't go back to re-read it til just now.
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Re: Does Shanxi XY do a Tan Toi set?

Postby Ray on Tue Jul 01, 2008 8:27 pm

Sal,
I have some familiarity with anthropological research methodology. What is this "real process" that you're applying to your observations? The apparent connections that you're drawing between and among different traditions based on minor morphological similarities reflects outdated process in disrepute among anthropologists.
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Re: Does Shanxi XY do a Tan Toi set?

Postby salcanzonieri on Tue Jul 01, 2008 8:31 pm

Finny;

If you seriously think I am going to give all my sources, footnotes, write a full serious article, etc, etc in a anonymous discussion group, that is not realistic at all.
I'm just talking in casual conversation here with anyone that wants to. It's just conjectoring, and it attracts people who do have more serious interest that I might not have known of. Lots of people have gotten together with me from her and other discussion groups, and I have shown them stuff they wanted to look over and we have had more in depth conversation and information passed. I have a big archive, I dig through it for people.
People who are more serious either meet me in person or get in touch privately or phone and I go through my archives and give them what I can find, if I have it.

This place or any anonymous discussion group is no place to do any "serious" academic presentation, that's irrational, illogical, and inviting people copying actual real research and presenting it as theirs. Many websites have ripped off my articles and posted it on their sites as if it is their own historical research and what's worse have changed details that they did not like to see. I don't know who anyone here really is and neither do you.
I've always put in one really wrong detail so that I can trace where they got the info from and prove it was copied. I was told to do that by people who write for a living, over 20 years ago. I post nothing that can be considered "serious" academic research because this is not the place for it. I write under various names and have even ghost written books for other people. This is what it is, a nice place to talk about stuff that you like. And a place to meet more people that are into what you are into and who know enough to contact someone personally for further information.

Also, the big joke is that often I have posted as a Chinese person and people never give me a hassle, saying the same things I have said under this name. Plus this isn't even my real name, it's a name long ago started to use for writing or any public thing, not in my band, not in any publication. No one knows my real name.
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Re: Does Shanxi XY do a Tan Toi set?

Postby Josealb on Tue Jul 01, 2008 8:40 pm

Sal, you cant really say that you know the goods... and in the same sentence say nobody knows your real name.
Do you really expect people to take you seriously?
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Re: Does Shanxi XY do a Tan Toi set?

Postby salcanzonieri on Tue Jul 01, 2008 8:45 pm

edededed wrote:I think it is very difficult to compare the movements from one style and another - for one, how do we know that a particular example of a style is authentic, anyway? We can try to find the best lineages, but even finding that, we cannot be sure that the current practitioners were not influenced by popular CMA today (taijiquan, for example); even finding the best, most authentic lineages, we cannot be sure that the current practitioners are not showing watered-down versions, or that they are practicing what their great-grandteachers taught unchanged (just look as how fast baguazhang changed through the generations).

But anyway, there are a few points I am not sure I agree with right now (they might be right, but I haven't seen much to substantiate them here yet):

1. I don't think that Shanxi xingyiquan people teach bafanshou before teaching xingyiquan. Most people just start with xingyiquan, and never learn bafanshou.
2. I doubt any connections between aikido and xingyiquan (or even baguazhang); I can read Japanese, so if that Japanese research is available, I could look it over for you, though.

I don't know much about eagle claw or fanziquan or liuhequan, but I do want to know more about the relationship with the eagle claw fanzi (yingzhaofanzi) and other fanziquan lineages (such as chuojiaofanzi).


The best one can do is trace "Who taught what to whom, when and where", that's all you can find, a trial that connects people, places, and styles together.
Some styles adopt a set from another style, some adapt a set from another style, some styles have many sources. Tracing the people movement tells you the most about a style. By our time period much information becomes obscured, so learning "who taught whom what, when, and where" uncovers many details long forgotten.

I don't know anything about Japanese MA, cause I have never researched it.

Shanxi people learning Ba Fan Shou, some Shanxi people told me that in another discussion group many years ago.
Maybe it was the case back in the 1980s, maybe it still is, you go find out more if that interests you, take a survey in Shanxi.

Fanzi Quan goes under many different names and there are many different branches, most are located in the regions that General Zhao taught it.
The Beijing style is officially known as Chuojaio-Fanziquan. The different branches have different names. Many do entirely different sets than other branches.
Also there are branches from other provinces that have much older lineages.
There is a really good website that give a lot of historical and other info, including videos:
http://www.satirio.com/ma/chuojiao/history.html

Go there and keep pressing "next" and you will get pages of historical info.
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Re: Does Shanxi XY do a Tan Toi set?

Postby salcanzonieri on Tue Jul 01, 2008 8:55 pm

Josealb wrote:Sal, you cant really say that you know the goods... and in the same sentence say nobody knows your real name.
Do you really expect people to take you seriously?


I don't care what anyone in a anonymous group thinks, it is not important to me. People just like to fight with strangers cause it is save behind a keyboard and they like to block conversation so that people who want to converse can't do it, they get a perverse pleasure being interupters and spoilers. Like the kid that jumped on your toys at the playground and broke them.

People that have met with me, and still meet with me can vouch for me anytime. People who know better see the kernel of actual data that I am leaving here and there to meet more people who do research. We get in touch and we do more serious discussion.
That's the way it is, whatever you feel, you are getting mad at an image in your own mind of me, and not reality.

The fact that some of you get so burned up over nothing but conversation and ideas tells more about yourself and your own issues than any pubic image I may have or any image you have made up in your head about me (who you don't even know at all). Better informed people laugh about it to me.
That fact that you have time to waste getting mad about plain old conversational talking is sad.
Sadder still that I am responding to it, I know, but since only this website of all the ones I post on is like this, I might as will point it out.
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Re: Does Shanxi XY do a Tan Toi set?

Postby Josealb on Tue Jul 01, 2008 9:03 pm

Sal, you think people dont talk about you over a beer and laugh as well? I know a few who do...and none of them post with fake names. Have fun in make believe history land. :)
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