Does Shanxi XY do a Tan Toi set?

[beegs]

we have 12 roads in our che tantui, it doesnt seem that che just modified it a bot from the vids you posted, many arfe way different, and also their is differences in families within che style.

more seems plausable that che figured teaching the strightline basic sets was a good way for beginners to start to learn. I dont know the shaolin sets you guys discusss, but have done the 12 in our che curriculum, their is a similar set to mine in another che vid somewhere.

first road basically is a pao, then down backfist with front kick, then double catching motion, etc.
2nd road is beng quan with kick,etc

these sets were some of th first things i learned in che style,

[Finny]

I've been amazed by the similarities between TaeKwonDo's forward punch and XY's beng chuan.

I've come to the conclusion that XY comes from TKD.

Bagua is obviously related to Aikido - DHC must've studied with Ueshiba's teacher.

Savate seems so similar to TaeKwonDo that I've realised that XY and Savate are brother arts.

Judo comes from catch wrestling - they are identical.

Western boxing looks exactly like Muay Thai without the kicks and elbows - Boxing comes from MT.

Sanchin Kata looks like Wing Chun Kuen's YeeJee Kim Yeung Ma - Karate comes from Wing Chun.

I am a serious MA researcher.

[Josealb]

[salcanzonieri]

I've been amazed by the similarities between TaeKwonDo's forward punch and XY's beng chuan.

I've come to the conclusion that XY comes from TKD.

Bagua is obviously related to Aikido - DHC must've studied with Ueshiba's teacher.

Savate seems so similar to TaeKwonDo that I've realised that XY and Savate are brother arts.

Judo comes from catch wrestling - they are identical.

Western boxing looks exactly like Muay Thai without the kicks and elbows - Boxing comes from MT.

Sanchin Kata looks like Wing Chun Kuen's YeeJee Kim Yeung Ma - Karate comes from Wing Chun.

I am a serious MA researcher.

Now that's just being goofy.

That's very ignorant, because it is not MERELY looking at postures and movements, but ALSO at the same time, WHO TAUGHT WHAT TO WHOM WHEN AND WHERE that is also investigated. Anthropological techniques are used to look for patterns and the human interaction involved in the transmitting of those patterns. I have an academic background, I have a degree in Behavioral Sciences (Psych/Soc/Anth - triple major) and work in research field for over 30 years.

I'm 50 years old, not a little kid. Just because I am thinking out loud and looking to discuss some ideas with people here doesn't mean I don't know how to do proper research or collect data. I did over 25 years of field surveys, I have amassed a huge archive of papers, interviews, publications, and videos from China all this time and am investigating what I have collected in comparison with the latest research going on in China and elswhere. Lots of very good CMA research comes out of Russia lately. Plus I have learned and practiced about the styles I am researching, unlike many other researchers.

Otherwise, sure, one can be silly and try to connect things that look similar and might by chance be "exactly" the same as something else, but if there is no interaction between people, then it is impossible to make a valid connection, just observing convergence happening because the human body only does what it can do, and so different cultures can come up with the same ideas for different reasons.
But if there is not human connection nor interaction involved between the cultures and styles, then it's not valid.

Jujitsu, there is a connection, its material originally comes from a Chinese person that journeyed to Japan and stayed there.

Okinawan Karate comes from Southern CMA, since its various founders journeyed to south China regions and learned Five Ancestors style, White Crane, Southern Luohan, and other southern styles.

Aikido, its founder had some interaction with XY, I have heard from Japanese historians nowadays.

Sanchin kata comes from Chinese Southern tai zu sanchin sets, that's been long documented by karate historians.

[Finny]

That's the problem right there though Sal.

You don't "think out loud" here or elsewhere.

You present your opinions as verified facts, and act as though you have the credentials and know-how to establish these things, when you don't.

Jujitsu, there is a connection, its material originally comes from a Chinese person that journeyed to Japan and stayed there.

No, it doesn't.

The idea that Chin Gempin 'brought' jujutsu to Japan from China has been roundly disproven. There were several Yawara/Jujutsu/Kogusoku arts in existence in Japan centuries prior to Chin Gempin being born.

Some folks with a vested interest has proposed that idea, but it is considered, among Japanese martial artists/historians, to be about as accurate as the tale that "Da Mo brought kung fu to China".

Aikido's history and derivation has been thoroughly investigated, and pretty much every piece of evidence surrounding it has been examined. No CMA influence has ever been uncovered, other than in the minds of - again - folks with a vested interest.

The link between Okinawan Karate and CMA, Sanchin Kata and Fujian CMA has been widely researched, and the info is there for anyone who cares to look.


I WAS being goofy, Sal, because no matter how often these tendencies in your 'research' are pointed out to you - you never change your tune.

There are ways to "think out loud" here - and there are ways to present your own opinion as fact, to boost your own ego as some sort of 'respected MA researcher'.

You always tend to go with the latter, and always get called on it.

I would've thought you'd be used to it by now.

[Graculus]

Thanks for your reply, Sal.

I wonder, during your investigations into CMA origins, you have come to any conclusions or developed any opinions on the rates of change or development of 'sets'. For example, how many movements are added/changed per x number of generations? I say this because I have come across the idea in several different fields (eg linguistics), and figured it would be relevant (though horribly difficult to calculate) in the area of martial arts. Obviously there are lots of variables, but even so...

Graculus

[beegs]

Aikido, its founder had some interaction with XY, I have heard from Japanese historians nowadays.

i dont see anything similaar in xy to aikido, from tech to philosophy, completely different in my opinion

[salcanzonieri]

Thanks for your reply, Sal.

I wonder, during your investigations into CMA origins, you have come to any conclusions or developed any opinions on the rates of change or development of 'sets'. For example, how many movements are added/changed per x number of generations? I say this because I have come across the idea in several different fields (eg linguistics), and figured it would be relevant (though horribly difficult to calculate) in the area of martial arts. Obviously there are lots of variables, but even so...

Graculus

That would be interesting to do.
One would have to narrow it down to one set and go from there.
People are doing that right now in China concerning sets in Shaolin from Henan, some Hakka sets, some southern tai zu sets, and others, that I have heard are being conducted.

[salcanzonieri]

That's the problem right there though Sal.

You don't "think out loud" here or elsewhere.

You present your opinions as verified facts, and act as though you have the credentials and know-how to establish these things, when you don't.

Okay, understood, so that means I have to preface someone I post with "JUST THINKING OUT LOUD - Looking for your opinion, if interested".

I can do that if that will make things better.

Sal

[Robert Young]

Aikido, its founder had some interaction with XY, I have heard from Japanese historians nowadays.

i dont see anything similaar in xy to aikido, from tech to philosophy, completely different in my opinion

Well, It looks exactly the same for Sal, but not everyone else.

[WongYing]

Sal

You mentioned that eagle claw people in China practice Tan Tui as one of their foundation sets, can you offer your view as whether the tan tui practiced was pre or post ChenTziChing's time at Shanghai Chin woo.

Also please can you site what evidence you have to support that the system of eagle claw was in existence as a cohesive system pre or post Liu Dekuan
"Liu Du Kuan, who was an influence on the founding of Eagle Claw"

Also please site what evidence you have to support the following

Liu Dekuan taught his Ba Fan Shou to a few students, including Chen Zizheng (who developed Eagle Claw style from Ba Fan Shou and Fan-zi Quan).

I was under the impression that ChenZiChing was a student of Liu Chung Yo/Lau Sing Yau, who was a student of Liu Si Chun.

Was or was not eagle claw allready in existence as a cohesive system prior to ChenTziChing time?

Thanks for your input

[Iskendar]

Aikido's history and derivation has been thoroughly investigated, and pretty much every piece of evidence surrounding it has been examined. No CMA influence has ever been uncovered, other than in the minds of - again - folks with a vested interest.

For interesting reading on this subject, read Ellis Amdur's series of articles on the origins of the internal stuff in aikido on aikidojournal ("Hidden in plain sight", IIRC). He dismisses the Chinese connection due to the short duration of Ueshiba's stay in China (which was more of a tour than a stay, reducing learning opportunities). Everything in aikido can be found either in daito ryu, kukishin ryu or omoto kyo meditative practices. No need to promote Ueshiba to the fastest learning bagua or xingyi student ever

[Finny]

Mr. Amdur has apparently collated his research and musings on the subject and is about to release them in the form of a book entitled 'Hidden in Plain Sight'.

His efforts, together with those of Stan Pranin and others, are what I was refering to.

At the end of the day, there are SO many reasons to dismiss the CMA influece theory, and NO reason to believe it, other than superficial physical similarities (ie. Sal's classic "it looks the same/similar, so it's from the same source" method)

[salcanzonieri]

I really resent you guys making a joke of things and saying stuff like "Sal's classic "it looks the same/similar, so it's from the same source" method", because that is not what I do at all. I have a real process that I use that is from Anthroplogy. And I work with serious researchers around the world. Who taught whom what, when, and where is the major data that is collected. Without that, nothing can be substantiated.

Case in point, a few years back, when I was researching the connection between Chen TJQ and Shaolin Tai Zu and Hong Quan, I made an observation that whenever I saw someone practicing Wen Sheng Quan style, which is from Shandong province, it seemed that many of its movements, postures and applications where like Tai Ji Quan and also like Tai Zu Chang Quan and Lao Hong Quan, which were from Henan and elsewhere. I wanted to see why, considering that they were so far apart.

After investigating "who taught whom what, when, and where", I found out that there was indeed a reason. This style does turn out to be a merger of three elements: Taoist nei gong, Shaolin Tai Zu Chang 32, and Lao Hong Quan 108.

During the 1640s, when Ming turned to Qing dynasty, Liu Feng Tian, a Daoyin and Taoist Nei gung master, moved to Shan Country in Shandong province.
He had 8 disciples there, one of whom was Gao Nan Guo, who was a descendant of Zhao Kuan Yin (Song Tai Zu emperor). He was already a master of Shaolin Tai Zu Chang Quan 32 and its weapons (battlefield broadsword and Straight sword. Guo combined what he learned from Liu, with his family TZ Chang Quan (32 postures) and the Lao Hong Quan (108 postures), the style was called 5 Step Jia (frame).
Later his student Song Chuan Ping renamed the style as Wen Sheng Quan.

Being that it draws from the same Tai Zu Chang Quan and Hong Quan roots as Chen Tai Ji, the style shares some similar attributes and uses same names for concepts, even though it was developed far from Chen Village: hard and soft combined, tight Silk Reeling energy, spiral motion, all body parts connecting to issue strength, with upward and downward Fa Jin (explosive power).

Movements in forms are learned the ancient way: small sequences of moves in combination, strung together in Tangs (laps), can be broken into parts or mixed in new combinations.

According to their lineage history, the set Tuo teng Mu Jia is derived from 32 posture Tai Zu Chang Quan and
the set Er Teng Jia is derived from 108 posture Lao Hong Quan, although heavily mixed with taoist nei gong movements.

So, interesting thing to see: two styles based on the same root material (Tai Zu chang quan and Hong quan) being developed at the same time period and both having the same concepts.
Interesting to see how different it looks from TJQ but also how it has some of the same things.

The applications are like classic Shaolin Long fist and Shaolin Xin Yi Ba, where you use whole body striking and the postures are used to scissor the opponent.
Second video shows applications that are the same as what I learned for Lao Hong Quan.

Observation (conclusion?): Wensheng Quan is an internal style developed in parallel to Chen TJQ time period and draws from the same roots as Chen TJQ (roots that are mentioned in Chen family boxing manuals).

I posted some videos you can see here:
viewtopic.php?f=6&t=858

[salcanzonieri]

Sal

You mentioned that eagle claw people in China practice Tan Tui as one of their foundation sets, can you offer your view as whether the tan tui practiced was pre or post ChenTziChing's time at Shanghai Chin woo.

Also please can you site what evidence you have to support that the system of eagle claw was in existence as a cohesive system pre or post Liu Dekuan
"Liu Du Kuan, who was an influence on the founding of Eagle Claw"

Also please site what evidence you have to support the following

Liu Dekuan taught his Ba Fan Shou to a few students, including Chen Zizheng (who developed Eagle Claw style from Ba Fan Shou and Fan-zi Quan).

I was under the impression that ChenZiChing was a student of Liu Chung Yo/Lau Sing Yau, who was a student of Liu Si Chun.

Was or was not eagle claw allready in existence as a cohesive system prior to ChenTziChing time?

Thanks for your input

Far as I was able to find out, Eagle Claw's tan tui is from Chin Woo school, it was developed there first and then spread out from that point.

AND, from what I have been looking at, the reason that I saw some kind of connection between the tan tui and Yue Shi Ba Fan Shou was really just a simple reason, and something from modern times. So, I was right I guess but for the wrong reason.
When the Chin Woo was developing the 12 Tan Tui, the input came from the various teachers there, and their 12 tan tui is a merger of Cha Quan 10 Tan Tui (from Wang Zi Ping) and other long fist styles, including Eagle Claw. Since Yue Shi Ba Fan Shou was an eagle claw style training set, some of its movements were intermixed with the rest to make 12 Tan Tui. The two person 12 tan tui has more movements that are found in Yue Shi Ba Fan Shou as well.
Fairly obvious reason for seeing similarities between 12 tan tui, Shanxi 12 tan tui, and Yue Shi Ba Fan Shou.

About your questions:

That quote:
Liu Dekuan taught his Ba Fan Shou to a few students, including Chen Zizheng (who developed Eagle Claw style from Ba Fan Shou and Fan-zi Quan).
didn't come from me it was from some people who do Yue Shi Ba Fan Shou today.

I did a more comprehensive search on this last year.

I didn't see anything that shows that Eagle Claw was a full cohesive system before Chen Tzi Cheng's time.

Prior to that there was just elements. Liu Du Kuan learned Yue Shi Ba Fan Shou, and related sets from his teacher.
Liu Du Kuan reorganized the material into simpler drills.

I did a 10 page long investigation about Yue Fei and XY, Ba Fan Men, and Eagle Claw's founding and posted it at the old Empty Flower discussion group and also at the kung fu magazine discussion group. It looked into who was doing what when and where.

Eric Hargrove does a lot of research into Eagle Claw origins and came to the same data results as me.
One thing he said: "Liu Shi Jun was a Fanzi Stylist (Bafanshou/Bashanfan, etc). the original set was said to have been either 8 or 9 roads. The set was modified and became extended. The most popular version is today descended from Jizixu's student Wangxinwu and he had written a book and there are 2 vcd out today on this set. the Eagle Claw system has the Walking Fist and Linking Fist sets which probably descend from the original set. It is a very straight forward set that is practiced by quite a few Xingyi exponents. Gary Carbone is the only individual I know of who is teaching it here in the states http://www.taichiforfitness.com/style-bafanshou.html "

My main computer is not working (needs new power fan) so, as soon as I get the replacement part, I will be able to retrieve a copy of the article and can let you know, who taught who when and where.

If you want to search the two discussion groups archives, be my guest.
I'm pretty sure you can find it all at the kungfumagazine.com forum, there was a nice discussion with eagle claw people about it.
This was one thread:
forum.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?p=798503