Does Shanxi XY do a Tan Toi set?

[edededed]

EVERY biography? C'mon, that is going too far - sure, some masters learned Shaolin first, but not EVERYBODY. And who are all the greats, anyway?

[salcanzonieri]

[
First of all, your Tai Zu from your system is from Shandong province, it is named "tai zu" as meaning ancestral, it has NOTHING to do at all with Shaolin Tai ZU Chang Quan. Your Tai Zu set is a mixture of Shandong martial arts, like Yang Qing Quan, Hong Quan, and Cha Quan. Your Hong Quan is from a different system than the Shaolin Hong Quan that Chen village used along with their Pao Chui.

I don't think you know our Tai Zu Chang Quan at all. I'm a LF lineage holder. I think I know our forms and history. And, you don't know anything about them.

You are welcome any time. And, I believe you have never trained with real CMA master in your life at all. You probably learn things form vedios and books that will never give you anything about real CMA.

I know your TZ form and the rest of the system that now resides in Taiwan, I learned it long ago (and other forms in that system such as Lian Wu Zhang (Ditang Quan), Xiao Hu Yan, etc), I know all about it's history, who the people are that brought it to Taiwan, where they learned it from in Shandong and so on. It's the same TZ set that Yang Jing Ming teaches here in the USA. Entirely unrelated to the Shaolin TZ Chang Quan and Shaolin Hong Quan that I mentioned.

I have been training since 1975, I used to judge tournaments in the late 1980s, early 90s, I have used it for self defense many times in many places around the world. I am totally confident.
Many people from here and other discussion groups have met me and they know and have seen that I know what I am doing and am talking about. Also, I teach seminars on what I am talking about in my history articles, and recently did one in Spain, so plenty of people all over the world have met me and have seen me doing real CMA, and had hands on demonstration of how some styles are interelated.

Who cares, you do this with people in every discussion group I have seen you participate in, make topics go astray and turn into just arguing for the sake of arguing.
All this has nothing to do whatsoever with Shanxi XY using Tan Tui and Yue Shi Ba Fan Shou as training sets.
Nothing. That's the topic, you don't want to discuss the topic, then move one to bother someone else.
Sour old fart.

[salcanzonieri]

EVERY biography? C'mon, that is going too far - sure, some masters learned Shaolin first, but not EVERYBODY. And who are all the greats, anyway?

every bio on the people I mentioned, duh.

Now this is getting silly and boring.

People can't talk about the actual topic, so they have to throw in crabby comments to way lay the topic.

[salcanzonieri]

THIS is the topic, if anyone that knows about Shanxi XY can discuss, please do;
if people don't want to stay on topic, then let's just drop the subject, and move it to BTDT, thanks:

1 - An observation was made from seeing many versions of tan tui. For some reason the impression was made that it was seen before in another context.

2 - Turned out that there was indeed a Shanxi Tan Tui set. Originating from Che style of Shanxi XY?

3 - Something about that set seemed familiar too, which led to remembering that in Shanxi, a Yue Shi Ba Fan Shou set is often used for foundational training,much like the tan tui sets are used.

4 - There seems to be some overlap between the Shanxi tan Tui set and the Shanxi Yue Shi Ba Fan Shou set.
For example, movements, postures, and names of rows being very close.

5 - So, there MIGHT be some overlap between Tan Tui set (from where?) and Yue Shi Ba Fan Shou set, maybe.

6 - In Shanxi, the full version (24 moves) of the Yue Shi Ba Fan Shou set is taught by Zhang Xi Gui (he knows many styles besides XY).
I found out that one of his teachers was Hao Xue Ru, who was a student of Sheng Zi Rong, who taught the Ba Fan Shan style. Both of these two people had studied under Wang Xin Wu. Wang's Ba Fan came from Ji Zi Xiu. Ji learned from Liu Shi Jun. (Liu also taught Liu Du Kuan, who was an influence on the founding of Eagle Claw, which does the tan tui as one of their beginner sets, as well as YS Ba Fan Shou set).

So, that's the 6 points I was making, or my intention as to make these 6 points ONLY (if we can please start over the topic and forget the rest).

I don't see how anything in these 6 points is a source of contention, if anyone is interested in talking about these 6 points and not stuff that has nothing to do with these 6 points, then let's do it, thanks.

Point 5 is pure questioning on my part, that's what I want to explore. When you dig into these things, you often find "Who taught who what, when, and where" can be found out and relationships appear between things that seemed unrelated previously.

[Robert Young]

I know your TZ form and the rest of the system that now resides in Taiwan, I learned it long ago (and other forms in that system such as Lian Wu Zhang (Ditang Quan), Xiao Hu Yan, etc), I know all about it's history, who the people are that brought it to Taiwan, where they learned it from in Shandong and so on. It's the same TZ set that Yang Jing Ming teaches here in the USA. Entirely unrelated to the Shaolin TZ Chang Quan and Shaolin Hong Quan that I mentioned.

That tell me that you have NO idea what our TZ form is. Only some indoor students of LF knows our history. All you know is the things on the internet that you can read.

I have been training since 1975, I used to judge tournaments in the late 1980s, early 90s, I have used it for self defense many times in many places around the world. I am totally confident.
Many people from here and other discussion groups have met me and they know and have seen that I know what I am doing and am talking about. Also, I teach seminars on what I am talking about in my history articles, and recently did one in Spain, so plenty of people all over the world have met me and have seen me doing real CMA, and had hands on demonstration of how some styles are interelated.

You can believe or have all the confident in youeself. For me, I don't think you know anything about CMA at all. I don't think you have even trained with real CMA teacher at all. You like to look the the forms from vedio or yutube and come up with all the theory which has nothing to do with real life.

This is a typical scholar or historian approach on CMA.It is all talks.

[Robert Young]

EVERY biography? C'mon, that is going too far - sure, some masters learned Shaolin first, but not EVERYBODY. And who are all the greats, anyway?

every bio on the people I mentioned, duh.

Now this is getting silly and boring.

People can't talk about the actual topic, so they have to throw in crabby comments to way lay the topic.

I think it is you like to throw in crabby comments and make it silly and boring.

[WongYing]

Sal,

Comments like this do nothing to elevate your status as a "prominent researcher" of historical chinese martial arts. I must say I am disappointed to see you to do this.

"Fourth, I am confident that my training in foundational material means I can take you".

[salcanzonieri]

I know your TZ form and the rest of the system that now resides in Taiwan, I learned it long ago (and other forms in that system such as Lian Wu Zhang (Ditang Quan), Xiao Hu Yan, etc), I know all about it's history, who the people are that brought it to Taiwan, where they learned it from in Shandong and so on. It's the same TZ set that Yang Jing Ming teaches here in the USA. Entirely unrelated to the Shaolin TZ Chang Quan and Shaolin Hong Quan that I mentioned.

That tell me that you have NO idea what our TZ form is. Only some indoor students of LF knows our history. All you know is the things on the internet that you can read.

I have been training since 1975, I used to judge tournaments in the late 1980s, early 90s, I have used it for self defense many times in many places around the world. I am totally confident.
Many people from here and other discussion groups have met me and they know and have seen that I know what I am doing and am talking about. Also, I teach seminars on what I am talking about in my history articles, and recently did one in Spain, so plenty of people all over the world have met me and have seen me doing real CMA, and had hands on demonstration of how some styles are interelated.

You can believe or have all the confident in youeself. For me, I don't think you know anything about CMA at all. I don't think you have even trained with real CMA teacher at all. You like to look the the forms from vedio or yutube and come up with all the theory which has nothing to do with real life.

This is a typical scholar or historian approach on CMA.It is all talks.

Last time I am answering you.
One - you argue like this about arguing in many discussion groups all over internet.
two- I have been featured and written about in articles in CMA publications all over the world way before youtube, VCDs, and DVDs even existed, even before there was the internet. People have been meeting me and conversing me from the days of private email discussion groups. Plenty of people here have met me.
three - being asked to judge forms in traditional CMA tournaments because of my articles and training negates your statements.
four - I have traveled all over the USA and abroad interviewing old CMA teachers new dead and received historical information and tapes and 8mm films from these people that even their own students never got, cause they thought their students weren't interested in history.
five - my articles are being published in China and some magazines there have gotten people together from styles I have mentioned are related in history and they have actually met and worked together to investigate how this is so, for example Tai Zu and Taijia Quan masters.
five - you don't even know what the actual Shaolin Tai Zu Chang Quan set even is that I have talked about. If you think that your Shandong based Tai Zu Quan set is related to any set I have talked about, especially the Shaolin Tai Zu Chang Quan set, then you are surely mistaken. They have been many articles in China about the origin of Shangdong Tai Zu, Hong Quan, and so on and how they are not related at all, except being "long fist" in nature.

Having said all that, I am man enough to apologize to you if I caused you to get upset, but all I wanted to do was discuss the topic at hand and not get all bogged down with the same old arguing.
So, please, stop wasting everyone's time and discuss the topic or don't bother posting in this topic, thanks.

[salcanzonieri]

THIS is the topic, if anyone that knows about Shanxi XY can discuss, please do;
if people don't want to stay on topic, then let's just drop the subject, and move it to BTDT, thanks:

1 - An observation was made from seeing many versions of tan tui. For some reason the impression was made that it was seen before in another context.

2 - Turned out that there was indeed a Shanxi Tan Tui set. Originating from Che style of Shanxi XY?

3 - Something about that set seemed familiar too, which led to remembering that in Shanxi, a Yue Shi Ba Fan Shou set is often used for foundational training,much like the tan tui sets are used.

4 - There seems to be some overlap between the Shanxi tan Tui set and the Shanxi Yue Shi Ba Fan Shou set.
For example, movements, postures, and names of rows being very close.

5 - So, there MIGHT be some overlap between Tan Tui set (from where?) and Yue Shi Ba Fan Shou set, maybe.

6 - In Shanxi, the full version (24 moves) of the Yue Shi Ba Fan Shou set is taught by Zhang Xi Gui (he knows many styles besides XY).
I found out that one of his teachers was Hao Xue Ru, who was a student of Sheng Zi Rong, who taught the Ba Fan Shan style. Both of these two people had studied under Wang Xin Wu. Wang's Ba Fan came from Ji Zi Xiu. Ji learned from Liu Shi Jun. (Liu also taught Liu Du Kuan, who was an influence on the founding of Eagle Claw, which does the tan tui as one of their beginner sets, as well as YS Ba Fan Shou set).

So, that's the 6 points I was making, or my intention as to make these 6 points ONLY (if we can please start over the topic and forget the rest).

I don't see how anything in these 6 points is a source of contention, if anyone is interested in talking about these 6 points and not stuff that has nothing to do with these 6 points, then let's do it, thanks.

Point 5 is pure questioning on my part, that's what I want to explore. When you dig into these things, you often find "Who taught who what, when, and where" can be found out and relationships appear between things that seemed unrelated previously.

[edededed]

Hi Sal,

Not trying to be crabby or trying to waylay the thread... (sorry if you felt I was...) Just trying to discuss here... (Usually saying something like "all" or "every" or "never" is a red light for me, guess I overreacted?...)

However, I already mentioned that Cheng Tinghua having been a "master" of Shuaijiao/Shaolin is a point of contention (in modern days, many people say this, but looking at older references (more primary references - such as Sun Lutang's works, Sun Xikun's book, etc.), it only says something like "he liked martial arts" and "he had no teacher"). Yin Fu, etc., may also be a point of contention if you look at the older references to them.

As for your 6 points:

1. Sure, that's reasonable.
2. I also mentioned a Song style tantui set (there are 12 lines).
3. I have never heard that Bafanshou was used for foundational training in Shanxi - could you elaborate on this?
4. Maybe (I am not familiar with the two sets).
5. Yes, perhaps.
6. Interesting, I didn't know that Ji Zixiu taught Wang Xinwu... (Zhang Xigui sure did have a lot of teachers, though.) Do you know who else learned from Ji Zixiu?

[Graculus]

So Sal,

This is at a slight tangent, but...
at what point do you speculate the legs were added to give the Tan tui sets that most people are familiar with (ie the 10 and 12 road styles connected with Cha Quan and Jingwu)?


(As an aside to Robert, I appreciate your comments on various topics and can see where you're coming from - I agree that preserving the integrity of a style is very important - in this case, I think Sal's investigations are interesting from a historical and intellectual point of view. I have not been taught tan tui, nor do I intend to learn it, but I am interested in the origins and development of styles that are similar to what I practice, or have some connection with it. I keep my 'speculation' and 'practice' seperate, but I enjoy both.)

Graculus

[salcanzonieri]

Hi Sal,

Not trying to be crabby or trying to waylay the thread... (sorry if you felt I was...) Just trying to discuss here... (Usually saying something like "all" or "every" or "never" is a red light for me, guess I overreacted?...)

However, I already mentioned that Cheng Tinghua having been a "master" of Shuaijiao/Shaolin is a point of contention (in modern days, many people say this, but looking at older references (more primary references - such as Sun Lutang's works, Sun Xikun's book, etc.), it only says something like "he liked martial arts" and "he had no teacher"). Yin Fu, etc., may also be a point of contention if you look at the older references to them.

As for your 6 points:

1. Sure, that's reasonable.
2. I also mentioned a Song style tantui set (there are 12 lines).
3. I have never heard that Bafanshou was used for foundational training in Shanxi - could you elaborate on this?
4. Maybe (I am not familiar with the two sets).
5. Yes, perhaps.
6. Interesting, I didn't know that Ji Zixiu taught Wang Xinwu... (Zhang Xigui sure did have a lot of teachers, though.) Do you know who else learned from Ji Zixiu?

Interesting thing about Cheng Ting Hua, he didn't need to know Shuai Jiao if he learned Luohan from Dong Hai Chuan first, Shaolin Luohan is a combination of Shuai Jiao and various Shaolin Long Fists such as Hong Quan, Chang Quan, Pao Quan, and Tong Bi Quan. If people "saw" the Shuai Jiao in his ba gua, it was most likely from having learned basic Luohan from dong Hai Chuan (maybe?).
Same with Yin Fu, I can see many many movements from Yin Fu and from Cheng Ba Ga in Shaolin 18 Luohan (8 sets of 18 - 144 postures) Hands.

Hmm, I have seen the Song style XY tan tui then, since it is 12 rows.

Ba Fan Shou info came from Zhang Xigui himself.

This is what I know about these people (which Gary Carbone's website describes):

During the Qing Dynasty, Liu Shijun mastered Ba Fan Shou and taught it to Liu Dekuan and Ji Zixiu. Liu Dekuan was famous for Ba Fan Shou and Spear (li hua qiang). He was also a major student of Dong Hai Chuan. Liu Dekuan taught his Ba Fan Shou to a few students, including Chen Zizheng (who developed Eagle Claw style from Ba Fan Shou and Fan-zi Quan).
Ji Zixiu kept the original style of Ba Fan Shou. He was learned Tai Ji Quan from Yang Lu Chan.

Ba Fan Shou was a hard style and Taiji is a soft style. Ji Zixiu combined them. In the early 19th Century, Wang Xin Wu studied Ba Fan Shou and Yang style taiji from Ji Zixiu, Xu Yusheng and Wu Jian Quan (founder of Wu’s style taiji). Wang then taught Hao Xueru, Shen Zi Rong, Ma Yeju, etc. CHEN JUNHAO studied Ba Fan Shou from Hao Xueru and Shen Zi Rong. Hao Xueru taught Zhang Xigui, who teaches Shanxi XY.

Ba Fan Shou is also commonly known by three other names. It is called Zi Mu Quan, which means “Son-Mother Fist”, since one move will lead to another; Yue Shi Lian Quan, meaning “Yue's Style Continous Fist”, or “Combination Fist”; and Yue Shi San Sou, which translates as “Yue's sparring”.

[salcanzonieri]

So Sal,

This is at a slight tangent, but...
at what point do you speculate the legs were added to give the Tan tui sets that most people are familiar with (ie the 10 and 12 road styles connected with Cha Quan and Jingwu)?

Graculus

Hmm, well, that depends on when it was developed. The spring kick is unlike other kicks, most kicks seen today (high) are like they are done from the Chuo Jiao style.

Shantong province had a temple that was known for it's spring kicks, it was called Pond leg, Tam Tui.
Moslem CMA system is where tan tui comes from, which is from Shandong too (not originally, Moslem CMA are from Western China originally.)
There is a Moslem Tui Quan style too that kicks like that.

Really old, in Shandong area, is a long fist style called Yuan Yuang Quan, which does the Mandarin Duck kicks, which in essence is the spring kick done successively, with both legs.

Yue Fei Jia Quan doesn't have high kicks, neither does any Ba Shan Fan / Ba Fan Men / Ba Fan Shou styles derived from Yue Jia Quan. There are kicks though, just not high.

So, IF Yue Jia Quan or Yue Shi Ba Fan Shou or other related styles developed after the late Southern song dynasty, after 1170s AD, then it would have to be around the beginning of the Ming Dynasty when the spring kick was added from Moslem CMA.

Being that Moslem CMA originated in Tang dynasty, they might have had the spring kick first, and if they (being that Moslems often served in the military in China) learned Yue Jia Quan or Ba Fan Men during post Southern Song era / early Yuan Dynasty era from being in the military or from ex-military people or from decedents of Yue's sons, then they incorporated this set into their system and added the kicks. By Ming Dynasty, when Moslem CMA reached Shandong province, the tan tui rows became incorporated into their Jiazi Quan style. Jiazi Quan was changed during Ming times into Shandong styles of Hua Quan, Cha Quan, and Tui Quan (and Hong Quan, as in Slippery, not Red or Flowing for Hong). People in Shandong area learned Jiazi Quan from Chinese Moslems, but over time it mixed with various Shangdong long fist styles (such as Yuan Yuang Quan, Yan Qing Quan, Cai family Hua Quan, Hong Quan, etc).

Either way, it most likely happened during the Ming era.

[edededed]

Thanks for the fairly long description, Sal.

I wonder if Cheng learned any luohan or Shaolin (before or with Dong) at all; it is debatable, but I don't think we know enough to say either way.

As for bafanshou in Shanxi, does anyone teach bafanshou as foundational training in Shanxi? I guess I have never heard of this... Tantui, yes, but not bafanshou...

[salcanzonieri]

Thanks for the fairly long description, Sal.

I wonder if Cheng learned any luohan or Shaolin (before or with Dong) at all; it is debatable, but I don't think we know enough to say either way.

As for bafanshou in Shanxi, does anyone teach bafanshou as foundational training in Shanxi? I guess I have never heard of this... Tantui, yes, but not bafanshou...

I learned Shaolin 18 Luohan Hands (all 8 sets) about 20 years ago, when I later learned ba gua (sun), it was bizarre the feeling of deja vu when doing the ba gua sets. I spent a lot of time comparing the 18 Luohan (not just any Luohan set, this particular one only) with Cheng and Yin videos and with their practitioners, and there was like 80% overlap in the movements, including that set one has all the movements of the first 3 old mother palms in it (single, double and flowing palms).

Zhang Xigui teaches it in Shanxi, he sells a DVD of it too. its exactly the same as other style's yue shi ba fan shou. In fact, many only teach one set of 8, Zhang teaches all three, the Lower 8, Middle 8, and Upper 8. Some schools only teach the Upper 8 (Gary Carbone's school in NJ) and most others only know the Lower 8 (as can be seen in the various youtube videos).