The Combat Usage of Dantien

[johnwang]

Can somebody explain how to use Dantien in:

- hook punch?
- side kick?
- elbow lock? and
- hip throw?

Let's not involve healing, health, meditation, spiritual development and just concentrate on "combat" and see how far we can drive this discussion.

[D_Glenn]

In writing?

Answer: No.

...

End of thread.


.

[Sick3nin Vend3tta]

Can somebody explain how to use Dantien in:

- hook punch?
- side kick?
- elbow lock? and
- hip throw?

Let's not involve healing, health, meditation, spiritual development and just concentrate on "combat" and see how far we can drive this discussion.

Is/Has your Dantien been developed for combat?.

[kreese]

Great question.

Which dantian are you referring to? I find it much more useful to think about moving around the solar plexus. When the top moves, the lower part is stable. When the bottom moves, the top is relatively stable. The waist/middle dantian is the 5th major joint of the torso. That's all. A 3rd shoulder or 3rd hip, if you will.

[johnwang]

Hope we are not talking about "waist rotation" here. The "waist rotation" is commonly used in the SC (cucumber vine) and the prey mantis system. You rotate your waist, your waist pull your body, and your body pull your arms or legs. I truly hope it's not this simple, otherwise, I'll call this "common sense" again.

Is/Has your Dantien been developed for combat?.

Your comment is too "abstract" for me.

In writing? Answer: No.

If you are the 1st person to release the secret of "The combat usage of Dantien", the world will remember your name and nobody will be able to take this honor away from you. If you don't want to share your secret, 100 years from now, nobody will even know that you have the secret but you just don't want to share.

[Sick3nin Vend3tta]

Nope, not talking about waist rotation. I'm talking about developing the dantien.

Regardless, if your dantien isn't developed, then it ain't gonna be developed for combat.

[D_Glenn]

Regardless, if your dantien isn't developed, then it ain't gonna be developed for combat.

Yes. I tried to point that out in the other thread.

Trying to to describe how to use the dantian to someone who does not have a developed dantian is like trying to tell a women how to use a cock.

[johnwang]

I'm talking about developing the dantien.

For those of you who has fully developed your Dantien, how do "YOU" (not me) use your Dantien in combat?

side kick - cannot perform it directly because that breaks the line, but with a sweep first yes : vertical front circle + horizontal circle + vertical side circle.

Now we are getting somewhere. Thanks for the 1st answer. Let's have some words here for the sake of the CMA history record so the future generation can learn from us. It should be a very honorable thing to do.

So far we have:

1. vertical front circle + horizontal circle + vertical side circle can generate power for "sweep".
2. to be continue ...

[Sick3nin Vend3tta]

http://rumsoakedfist.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=9080&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=270#p156887


Takes many years to develop...

[Upyu]

side kick - cannot perform it directly because that breaks the line

Sure you can,

Ever take a look at Japanese shiko? That stomp that the sumo guys do? That can be easily modified to be a side kick.

Since no one wants to take a stab at it (I'm surprised since this one is pretty simple, imo) I'll give it a go.
Note: All mechanics herein imply that you're conditioned enough that a) you can store and control breath pressure b) you're conditioned enough that the middle is tied to the limbs.

The mechanics of any dantian based movement can kind of be split into roughly two parts:

You got: a) the "skin/fascia/tissue" whatever it is that weaves the body together into a cohesive unit, and its manipulation
Then b) the manipulation of ground and pressure

For a)

So the "cock" of the side kick, is really a permutation of a "close" movement:
http://americangoju.com/bermuda_karate_ ... ingham.jpg
The above is more a muscular version of what happens, but basically:
Say you pull down on the "front" of the abdomen, anyone that's connected will find that doing this will pull the elbows/knees etc towards the body in an elastic fasion.

There's a variation on this, where if you turn the front of the abdomen only (not the hips!), say, to the left you'll cause the back of the dantian to wind to the right. This stretch pulls the left leg towards the body, storing elastic energy. This storing will also cause a compression to occur in the support/right leg.

The elastic portion can get deeper, but I'm trying to keep it simple.

For b)
As you "cock" the left leg by manipulating the elastic tension, drawing it towards your body, you simultaneously compress your support leg. Assuming you have an abdomen that you've learned to pressurize, you should have what equates to a "bowling ball of pressure" that sits right on top of the support leg.

Now you do two things at once.
You release the stored up elastic tension of the "frame"/"suit"/"connection"
and at the same time, you straighten the support leg. Straightening the support leg will push the pressure of the "bowling ball" out into the other leg. (btw, this is "open," and part of it will involve feeling the crotch open kind of)
If you want to add a bit of "omph" then point the bowling ball 45 degrees downward, slamming it down. (hence the stomp in Shiko)
The combined elastic tension, and the pressure/weight, if aimed properly say at, a person's dead angle/third leg, will generally send them flying.

Boiling it down,
pull on the front of the abdomen to "close,"
push pressure up the back to "open" the body.
This opening/closing of the body is what controls the extremities, and is essentially tied to that middle area.
Adding side to side movement, will induce a winding across opposite hand/foot,
and basically mixing and matching this, plus controlling the pressure of the abdomen and how it flows to the extremities, as well as ground force/weight, will allow you to literally control the limbs with minimal involvement of local musculature.

Once you get it, it feels like you're a bit like a marionette on strings...or maybe a sex toy on strings

Any movement that can occur through this mix-and-match can be done "internally."
While the above sounds complicated, it really isn't. The dantian is still at the heart of what controls the pressure and elastic tensions.

Using the same logic you can do a hook or hip throw as well
(Hook, and this is only one way: push the pressure up the back, this will push the arm up and out (open), then pull down on the front to close the arm, point the ball of pressure downwards at a 45 degree angle to get some downward force to the hook (without actually changing the vector).

etc etc

[Interloper]

Heck, why not just say it's "aiki" with the leg as the output point.

[D_Glenn]

The Dantian is... like the little ball inside your computers mouse, the hands or attacks are the movements of the pointer.

You can use normal movement where the movement through x, y, and z is the same as the pointer.

Some movements need to work like the 'inverted mouse setting' where the movement of the pointer moves in the opposite direction of the mouse.



.

[Walk the Torque]

For those of you who has fully developed your Dantien, how do "YOU" (not me) use your Dantien in combat?

Ok John, I'll attempt an explanation.

Purely subjectively speaking, I use my lower dantein to centre my focus, power my movements and adopt a mode of continuous power.

However, to single out the dantein on it's own I think would be little misleading, so I would have to qualify everything with the mention of whole body jin. By this I mean that the feeling of heaviness (and sometimes lightness) that I move around my body to add to the strength and techniques I perform.

Now, again speaking subjectively, I start with a motion in the lower dantein region and let it spread to my limbs. This feels like layering the force of momentum so that it builds to what I consider an exceptable level (strength). Then I consider myself in the best position to engage with my opponent.

Why do I do this? Well, for very similar reasons that a boxer keeps on his toes and dances; because it serves that dual function of being able to react more quickly, deliver more power more quickly, and also assists in unpredictabilty. Added to this it requires less of a wind-up for strikes etc, because the nature of the movements made allows for continual storage and circulating of force.

So in the case of: - hook punch
- side kick
- elbow lock and
- hip throw

I attempt to enter having already started the process of "mobilizing" my "Qi-netic" energy and using the required movement to set up the attack or counter attack that I intend to carry out. This usually takes the form of a slight movement in one direction that circles or spirals towards another direction. Either left to right, forward and back, up and down (or all three if I'm on form).

In short, this means that my free movement skills are based on my power generation skills. So the coiling, expanding and contracting, and eliptical movements I do are inextricably linked to my stratergy and techniques; and all those are fed from the swirling vortex of my tummy . So I really do move like my forms.

An elbow lock then would be from the power being fed to both arms moving in opposite directions, or one limb stationary and the other moving, by the transportation of the heavy (or sometimes light) feeling that is generated in the lower dantein. Similarily the the kick or punch is about marrying my free movement skills (position), with my power generation and timing their' application by use of eliptical delivery of said technique. Throws are the same, however I generally am only countering when I throw.

So in essence, using the dantein for me is about continous generation of jin and using that jin when the opportunity arises.

All the best

Conn

[everything]

So whole body circular Jin like a gyroscope with a turn at the center powering a turn at the outside

[Walk the Torque]

So whole body circular Jin like a gyroscope with a turn at the center powering a turn at the outside

Sure, but with little sling shots of chi balls at the ends